Freedom of Religion?? Yeah, we still do that…
February 8th, 2008 . by TexasFredHave you ever had a day when you just couldn’t get excited about blogging politics?? Have you ever been so burned out on politics that you felt like one more political post would make you pull your hair out??
Today is that day for me, so I am going to address the hypocrisy, or perhaps it’s simply stupidity, that some seem to be suffering from lately…
I get tired of having to explain things to stupid people, a blog I frequent recently had a post about the American woman being arrested in Saudi Arabia for breaking Saudi/Islamic law by sitting down in a public place with a male that she wasn’t related to, and I gave my opinion of that action, I said, when in Rome, she should have known better, it’s HER responsibility to be familiar with the law of the land, and ignorance of the law is NO excuse, well, one of the other comment makers went ballistic, he accused me of not caring about what happens to innocent Americans and it’s people with MY attitude that will be be the reason that Islam will be allowed to take over America…
So, here’s the deal, yes, she IS an American, but she’s NOT innocent, not by THEIR law in THEIR nation, it can’t be any more easy to understand, can it??
To put it nicely, the guy accusing me of not supporting Americans in foreign lands is apparently a retard, I explained to him that what happens to a person in a foreign country, even if it goes against ALL that we believe as Americans, is basically NONE of our business, other nations have their own laws and as visitors TO those nations we MUST abide BY those laws, we can’t tell a nation how to run itself…
He then said something to the affect of, ‘You don’t care that their moonbat religion is wrong and what they do to people in the name OF that religion is wrong?? It’s coming here, Islam is coming here and it’s people like you that allow it…’
Well, never one to take this kind of idiocy lightly, I told him, and ALL the other comment makers, that it was the Constitution of the United States that would allow the Muslim monkey’s that right of religious expression here in the USA, and it IS a fact, we, the American people, do allow them the right to practice their ancient moonbattery HERE, but if they, people like him and a few others in that thread, wanted to suspend the Constitution and have a NAZI like movement where only WHITE CHRISTIANS were afforded freedom of religion, so be it, but it wasn’t me that gave the Muslims the right to practice their BS pedo-worship here, the U.S. Constitution did, and if they don’t like it, change it…
So, now I’m accused of being some kind of Dem loon because I speak the truth??
That was the accusation, that I’m a Dhimmi, what ever the hell a Dhimmi is, I have never understood the significance of that particular word when Dem and Dumb-ass were available, but anyway, now I’m a Dhimmi for believing in the Constitution and it’s literal interpretation…
This is addressed to one particular individual, and he knows who he is, but just so everyone knows, I have been to nearly every nation on this earth, and when you are in a foreign country, YOU are subject to THEIR laws and customs, that’s life, that’s the breaks, get the hell over it and deal with it, or stay your lame, ignorant ass in America…
And yeah, we DO give in to all of their demands, the Muslim immigrants of this nation have a history of insisting that WE assimilate to them when they come to America, but that is NOT something we HAVE to do, it’s not something we are FORCED to do, it’s something we do mainly because the biggest majority of Americans today are gutless, apathetic cowards that would rather give in than fight, and it should also be mentioned, there was no way the framers could have foreseen this nation being over-run but Islamic moonbats, so, in it’s most perfect interpretation, the 1st amendment is a perfect way of thinking, for the time in which it was written…
Foreigners are given American freedoms the moment they hit our shores, ALL men are granted those rights, Amendment One: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances., and as I have repeatedly said, if you don’t like the freedoms that the 1st amendment grants us, then use it’s very wording to change it, if you see the Muslims and their moonbattery as a legitimate grievance, petition the Government to have that grievance removed…
I didn’t write the Constitution, I just feel that until changed, we MUST live by it, and yes, I do feel that there should be some changes made TO the Constitution, for the most part it IS the most magnificent writing ever published, but some minor modifications that compensate for the unique problems of our time may well be in order, IF we have the guts to make those changes…
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I blogged about the same thing regarding the British woman and the teddy bear named Mohammad. She is the foreigner, it is their country, their rules. If she think she can change that nature, she is wrong. She knew about the viper pit when she chose to step into it. She was subsequently bitten.
The thing I find frightening is that England is officially cowing and bowing down to Islam on many levels and by many levels of authority, the Archbishop being most recent. These elements of Islam are in our country. Taxi drivers in Michigan are already declaring who they will and will not transport; those carrying pork or alcohol. Foot basins are already in airports. Islam is studied in American schools where Christianity is not. Accepting and then advocating Sharia Law is tantamount to insurrection and disaster.
Another country? That’s different. But there shall be no Sharia Law in my country. That’s my point. Your point being essentially the same: you step out of the US, you must understand where you are and its concomitant customs.
BZ
The US and England are probably two of the only countries who allow foreigners to come in and take a dump on our laws and traditions.
I’ve been to foreign nations due to military commitments and I’ll tell you that for some reason Americans believe that our Constitution follows them abroad. We go overseas with an arrogance of superiority and expect to do our own thing in disregard to their laws and customs. In many countries, customs outweigh laws.
You break their laws, you pay their price.
I wish things were different, I wish America had the balls it had once.
We can’t expect English to be the OFFICIAL language, WE can’t expect other nationalities to actually assimilate to OUR culture when they are here, That would be unthinkable….
On the other hand EVERY nation other than us should feel free to expect others to abide by their laws and customs.
Beware American travelers, you are not in Kansas anymore when you are out of the USA…
The establishment clause of the is one of the most over-used and misunderstood parts of the Constitution. Jefferson’s letter regarding the wall of separation of state and church is just that, a letter not a part of the Constitution. It seems however that it carries just as much weight as what the signers of the Constitution put forth.
I spend too much of my limited time on earth trying to explain to secularists that the bastardization of this part of the Constitution by the judicial branch does NOT mean that founding fathers did not establish this as a Christian country which is inclusive of all religions or no religion at all.
Fred … BZ … Bob… and Robert, you all hit the nail square on the head! All I can add is … ditto!
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What part of this is it that you do not understand NUN OF THE ABOVE?
It is plain to me that the forefathers intended on a separation of church and state and freedom of religion..and freedom of religion implies freedom from religion.
Contrary to right wing Christians who insist that their’s is the only way and have shamans such as Huckabee who figures the Constitution should be amended to meet the agenda of the Southern Baptists, no one is restricting your freedom to worship as you please. In fact the majority of us who are not Christians could really give a rats ass who or what or when you worship…it is when you start forcing your religion on us that we fight back
The fact remains that anyone of any religion has the right to practice that religion in the USA providing that practice does not infringe on the rights of others. Baptist, Deist, raghead muslem, or Hindu or Jew…makes no difference. But if any one religion wants the respect of others it also has to show respect to others. And that just seems tough for ALL organized religions to do.
I think Nun missed the point, this isn’t about religion per se, it’s about moonbat religion, ie; Muslims, and them being allowed to preach their hatred right here in the USA, and my point it this, the U.S. Constitution gives them that right, this has nothing to do with church and state, it’s ALL about rights granted under the Constitution…
GUYK,
I understand EVERYTHING that is WRITTEN in the Constitution. When you insert the word “implied” then by definition YOU are adding your interpretation of the words and their meaning. And unless you are a part of the Supreme Court or communicating with the dead, then it is your opinion only.
The forefathers did not want a state religion, as was the case in England. The fact that they were writing from a Christian point of view is a matter of historical fact not opinion.
The judicial system has taken Jefferson’s letter and used it as a basis to add the implication that a country without a state religion SHOULD be a nation WITHOUT religion. No religious (i.e. Christian) symbols should be involved in any governmental controlled entity. They have banned the Biblical statues from “public” courthouses and crosses from the city flags and seals.
I personally don’t care a whit about what the religion is of others…. Muslim, Wicca, or whatever. My personal religious experience is mostly non-existent. I do not, however, want Christianity to be erased from the historical context that it played in the founding of this country or be singled out as the one religion that is not allowed to be included in public non-mandatory religious activities and ceremonies.
If any group, even under the pretense of religion, is teaching hate or treason that is a crime in itself and should be dealt with it as a crime. But the individuals right to have or not have a personal religion is one of the things our soldiers are dying for right now in two Muslim country.
At no point did I ever say that others should not be allowed to practice their religion. But the removal of all things Christian is not part of the First Amendment and a part of history revisionism brought about by a secular relativism. It has been allowed because of the Supreme Court’s INTERPRETATION of the Constitution based on a letter written by one man, Thomas Jefferson. The letter was written to get votes during an election year to a specific group of Baptist ministers, yet is has been given precedence that it was never intended. Would anyone today take a letter written by a political candidate to a lobbyist in hopes of winning his favor and votes and use it to interpret the Constitution? That is absurd.
Thanks, Fred, maybe I did get off the point. You are right; the Constitution does give rights or has been interpreted to give rights for people to do things I do not approve. That is the way it is, but by the same token, the Constitution has been twisted by liberal jurists to include or exclude things far beyond what is in the actual text.
The constitution and the bill of rights were put together by some who were not Christians as well as Christians of various sects. The primary reason that the first amendment prohibits a state religion is because the men who put it there didn’t want any one sect persecuting the others..as it had been done by Christian sects in the past.
It is ironic that Christians came to the new world to escape persecution yet did not hesitate to persecute any who didn’t believe as they did. I for one believe that if given the chance this persecution would happen again..stocks and hangings and burning of witches..yeah, the history of Christians is really something to be proud of..
But then I have no gripe about a prayer in school not religious symbols in public buildings..but just keep in mind when you do for one you must also do for others..do you want your children praying to an Islamic God in school? How about some equal time for devil worship?
True freedom requires respect of everyone’s freedom..not just the freedom to practice Christianity. But the true freedom is not now nor has it ever been compatible with any organized religious dogma because such dogma requires the stifling of logic and acceptance of the teachings on faith alone…
The Christian right wing infiltrated the GOP which accepted the infiltration in order to gain political power. Now we have a country that is trillions of dollars in debt and a GOP congress that worries more about abortion rights than illegal immigration and national defense….and a candidate backed by the religious right wing who has stated that he wants to change the constitution to fit his ideas of biblical agenda. And you wonder why the seculars of the country are supporting the dim-a-crits?
I am not supporting the dim-a-crits but I will not support any party that has the Christian right wing agenda on the platform..never again. This country became great because of its devotion to freedom and freedom from overbearing religious groups…I want it to become a great nation once again.
Fact are facts; please tell me which one of the framers of the Constitution was not a Christian. Don’t throw in the Deist card because even the Deists believed in God but disagreed with the tenants of the trinity. They believed in rationality over spirituality and found the Bible scientifically invalid.
Christianity and its history is not perfect. Any creation by man is by definition inherently flawed. Christians, however, are not currently stoning adulterers, beheading infidels, or flying airplanes into buildings filled with innocents of all religions.
As I stated before, I don’t care if someone prays in school, out of school, or not at all. I don’t have a problem with the personal belief in witchcraft or establishing the Church of the Great Elm Tree. It doesn’t affect me; it is someone else’s personal decision . I also do not believe that those whose religious beliefs differ from mine have a one-way ticket to hell.
But when history and the affects that Christianity had on the founding of this country is written out of the process, then the accuracy of the times is being altered. Los Angeles was founded as a Catholic mission, it is a part of the history and taking the cross out of the seal is disingenuous revisionism. The cross is a symbol and nothing more. It is not there to convert, discriminate, or intimidate. If you find that “overbearing,” then I am glad that the ACLU has now protected you from the trauma.
I am trying to follow your logic from separation of church of state to overspending, but I am having some problems with jump. Yes, the Republicans share the responsibility for the overspending that has taken place over the last decade, but I don’t know of any religious commandment that says “Thou shalt overspend other people’s money.”
Ironically, statistic showed in the last election Republicans actually lost some of the “church attending” population. The “religious right” is only a small percentage, perhaps 15%, of registered Republicans. That is hardly a majority. The fact that they tend to be vocal and well-organized may make them seem more influential than they really are. There are also gay, Jewish, black, Muslim and atheists groups within the GOP. If you don’t like the direction of the party, get involved, become a delegate, network with like-minded, but don’t blame others for your dissatisfaction.
I don’t know what planks of the platform you attribute to the “religious right,” but the 2008 platform, when it is formed, will be only that–a basis not a universal dogma that all Republicans are going to swallow whole. No one will ever agree with every word of it. It is intended to be a general consensus, not a mandate for a sheep-like populace. Besides, the possibility of getting every item or even some items supported by Christians legislated is not even feasible. Proof of that can be found in the fact that nothing changed even when Republicans controlled the Senate, House, and Presidency.
The religious right has not taken over the Republicans, if anything, they are closer to splintering off on their own than any other group. Most of them do not support John McCain who seems to be having no trouble against Evangelist Huckabee.
Vote for whom you choose, that is your Constitutional right, but don’t scapegoat a small group for your not having a candidate you like or a platform you can’t agree with. And don’t try to insert your 2008 mindset and views into 18th century intellectuals who, despite and because of their religious values, PRECISELY worded the place that established religion would and should play in this country.
Both Franklin and Jefferson were Deists..I am a Deist myself..but that doesn’t mean I am a Christian. A Deist believes in a Supreme power but does not accept the teachings of Shamans..any shaman. We have used our logic to deduce that their is in fact a power higher than that of humans that was the creator..but we also have used our logic to find that no one has any proof that their religion is any more right or wrong than any of the others…and we have used our logic to gain an understanding that Christianity..as are all organized religions nothing more and nothing less than an attempts by the shamans to gain control over society. The Christian right wing leaders are doing that today..RE: Huckabee and his comments about wanting to change the constitution to agree with the Bible.
I will scrapegoat the Christian right wing whenever I choose to do and that will be often, See, unlike the Christian right wing I believe in freedom of speech and do desire to put someone in stocks for blasphemy.
And, being a historian by education I have studied the early days of the American colonies as well as the letters and diaries of many of those who framed the constitution. You don’t seem to understand that the First amendment does in fact guarantee freedom of religion..seems few of the Christian right wing do understand this. It means that I can send my children to a public school without the fear that they will be indoctrinated in any religion…or at least it once did..now the children are being indoctrinated in the religion of socialism which is as bad as the far Christian right…actually I believe that a socialist is just a Christian right winger turned wrong side out..such as Huckabee..a Christian socialist.
Freedom of religion gives me a guarantee that “blue laws” will not close a business on anyone’s holy day and that libraries can stock books that a religion finds offensive. Freedom from religion insures that I don’t have to listen to a Christian right winger tell me NOT to exercise my freedom of speech…
And you are right..McCain has no trouble with the Christian right wing..he is a gotdam politician who will do whatever he has to do to get the votes..that’s how the GOP was infiltrated to begin with..to get the votes.
But if by some slim chance a true conservative party can be formed..one without the platform of the Christian right wing on it..a platform that addresses the three most serious issues facing this country…two billion Moslem’s who want to destroy us, 20,000,000 illegal immigrants who are helping to ruin our economy, and 11 trillion plus in a ever growing national debt…will the Christian right wing support this platform? I have my doubts..they have voted massive Federal spending and many supported McCain’ amnesty program..
I have came to the conclusion that the Christian right wing is against freedom..except for the freedom to push their agenda on me and others.
“I have came to the conclusion that the Christian right wing is against freedom..except for the freedom to push their agenda on me and others.”
You are free to come to any conclusion [opinion] you choose, and you have your one vote to prevent any group from pushing its agenda on you.
“I am a Deist myself..but that doesn’t mean I am a Christian.”
Thank you for enlightening me. I do not claim much knowledge of the modern deist movement and have found their websites somewhat angry in tone. Again, I don’t care about personal religious choices.
“I will scrapegoat [sic] the Christian right wing whenever I choose to do and that will be often, See, unlike the Christian right wing I believe in freedom of speech and have do desire to put someone in stocks for blasphemy.”
Again, feel free to speak as you will, but don’t be offended when you come off as bigoted and hypocritical as the good citizens of Salem who first blamed and then burned their witches.
“You don’t seem to understand that the First amendment does in fact guarantee freedom of religion..seems few of the Christian right wing do”
Once more, I am not, nor have ever been, a right wing Christian. Your assumption to that premise is a non-sequitur. I am a strict Constitutional constructionist; it says what it says. I understand the establishment clause perfectly; I just do not accept YOUR interpretation.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
—-the word FROM does not appear there in at all. It is impossible to have a country that accepts all religions and not be exposed regularly to someone’s religion or lack of.
“It means that I can send my children to a public school without the fear that they will be indoctrinated in any religion…”
If you think that any school can indoctrinate your child in social or religious matters then you need to consider how much of an impact you are making on their emotional and intellectual development. And again, your are implying things that aren’t there such as public education which is not a right guaranteed under the Constitution. It is a state mandate.
“a platform that addresses the three most serious issues facing this country…two billion Moslem’s who want to destroy us, 20,000,000 illegal immigrants who are helping to ruin our economy, and 11 trillion plus in a ever growing national debt”
That is a platform that I, too, would support. If members of any other religious or non-religious groups feel the same way, they are welcome. It is better than the alternative.
I suspect that I am not by myself about being upset about the socialism being taught in schools today..the last time I looked there were over a million children being educated by parents instead of trusting the socialist school system.
Bigoted? Yep, when my arguments cannot be refuted with logic I generally get called a bigot and thus far I have seen no logic..but then if you were logical you would not be defending a religion that practiced symbolic cannibalism nor had a history of burning those who did not agree at the stake..hell even that did agree were burnt just because they happened to be Jews by race and Christian by faith.
But then see, I once heard a story about a drunk and a preacher who met on a one way bridge. The drunk was there first and told the preacher that he needed to back up..the preacher yelled out, “I WON’T BACK UP FROM A FOOL!”
And the drunk replied, “I will.”
So like the drunk I am backing up and you have the last word.
Is it over??
That’s what the man said, and I don’t like bait.
I have placed a discussion on the first amendment on the American Conservative Forum under general discussion. Anyone wishing to factually review the history can come over.