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Is it Murder or Self Defense?

June 14th, 2008 . by TexasFred
Recently, I have been taken to task and called a ‘vile, redneck murderer’ because I advocate placing the U.S. military, combat troops, along the U.S. and Mexican border, and I also, unequivocally, advocate those troops being put in place and armed with FULL combat gear and ORDERS to SHOOT TO KILL anything crossing our borders ILLEGALLY.

I do NOT believe this constitutes and act of MURDER, I believe that these actions that I advocate constitute lawful defense of home and country, and would be defined as lawful acts of combat against an invading force intent on establishing a hostile takeover of this United States of America if we had a president with BALLS!

Murder: By definition

n. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

v. tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.

Further, I believe that in defending this nation in such a manner would fall under the auspices of The Castle Doctrine and Self-Defense and would be a duly lawful act as such.

Generally, the “castle doctrine” provides that someone attacked in his home can use reasonable force, which can include deadly force, to protect his or another’s life without any duty to retreat from the attacker. It is defined differently in different states. The name appears to have its origin in the English common law rules protecting a person’s home and the phrase “one’s home is one’s castle.”

Folks, I am firmly convinced that we are being invaded by a hostile force that intends to do harm to as many Americans as they possibly can as they attempt to reinsert themselves in a land that they consider to be lawfully theirs, Aztlán, and damn the consequences to the American people in the process.

I am told that we don’t need any more rednecks down on the borders making it even worse than it already is for border patrol personnel, SOURCE, and with that thought I tend to agree, but we DO need professional fighting men and women on that border, and a professional soldier is something my accuser has no understanding of apparently, nor does he comprehend defense of the nation.

We must stop this ILLEGAL INVASION by any means necessary.

In WWII, when our troops swarmed the beaches of Normandy, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and many other places, we were looked upon as INVADERS, and many of our troops were killed in the process of taking those lands.

Today the United States of America is being invaded and I ask you, wouldn’t it be our right, nay, our DUTY, to repel those invaders as forcefully as necessary?

If someone breaks into your home you have every right to shoot them dead, well, the United States of America is MY home, I feel that same right applies, to ALL of us.

I am asking all of my readers for an honest opinion, would stationing troops on our borders and giving the order to SHOOT TO KILL be an act of murder or is it an act of self defense, and the defense of our nation?

Comments Registration is OFF, this is a free fire zone thread and opinions are welcome, but be warned, personal attacks and name calling WILL BE DELETED and the violater(s) will be banned.

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81 Responses to “Is it Murder or Self Defense?”

  1. comment number 1 by: RTaylor

    I agree with you 100%. The “catch and release” policy doesn’t work. They just come back, and too many of them are violent offenders with no business in this country.

    Seal the border, shoot to kill if necessary. If the military isn’t available, call Blackwater. Those guys are awesome.

  2. comment number 2 by: DragonLady

    I agree with you totally. It is self-defense. I welcome anyone who legally immigrates to our country, but illegal “immigration” is invasion.

  3. comment number 3 by: TexasFred

    Fully agreed Dragon Lady, my family migrated here from Canada in the early 1900’s, but, they did it legally, and we have all served this nation in one way or another.

    Legal IMMIGRATION, hell yes, ILLEGAL invasion?? Shoot em down like the dogs they are.

  4. comment number 4 by: Longstreet

    Fred, I agree. I have advocated the same thing for years now. We need to secure our borders with military might. We are experiencing the largest land invasion in the history of mankind and our government, whose duty it is to protect our borders, is not doing it’s job and shows no inclination to EVER secure our borders. Without secure borders we are not even a nation!

    I believe the Military should be assigned to secure the borders, north and south, with orders to shoot to kill if anyone trespasses and enters our country illegally. That is defense of the country!

    I hate to bring up the ole saw “good fences make good neighbors”, but it is a fact.

    We are being overrun and if the citizens of the US don’t do something about it, it will not get done! It is as simply as that! Neither of the presidential candidates will do a damn thing about it.

    Didn’t mean to ramble on… but the short answer is: “Self Defense”!

    Best regards!

    Longstreet

  5. comment number 5 by: Phred

    These “illegals” pose a Clear and Present Danger to the people of the US.
    We have military doing training missions here in the States every day. Give them live ammo, and orders to shoot to kill.
    In 2-3 days, the “invasion” of America would come to a grinding halt.
    Some might call it murder, I would call it Security . Security for my children and grandchildren.
    Side note : If you are the friend of my enemy, then you are my enemy ( bleeding heart liberals, MSM, and the like). Get my drift ?

  6. comment number 6 by: Scotbrit

    I agree wholeheartedly with you, Fred. If you invade my home, you WILL be shot. If you invade my country, you should suffer the same fate. We have got to protect our country since the bleeding heart greedy politicians won’t do it. I feel there will come the time when those of us who love our country will have to do what is necessary to save it.

  7. comment number 7 by: GUYK

    Noun 1. invasion - the act of invading; the act of an army that invades for conquest or plunder
    penetration, incursion - an attack that penetrates into enemy territory
    inroad - an invasion or hostile attack

    It is my belief that the USA in in fact being penetrated by people from south of our borders who expect to gain from the intrusion into the USA..which by definition then is an invasion.

    An invasion is an act of war. If the government of Mexico is unable to control its people and keep them from invading the USA then it is up to the USA to protect itself. Shooting to kill does seem extreme..but so does flying the Mexican flag over that of the USA and now having to “press one for English.”

    I figure that the USA should give fair warning to Mexico..say 90 days for them to spread the word..and then start shooting at those who come across the border illegally. Self defense? All shooting during a war is self defenmse and we are being invaded which means it is in fact war..just an undeclared one…and maybe that is the problem..congress doesn’t have the balls to declare war when it needs to yet will support one that is no longer needed..

  8. comment number 8 by: Malagent

    Very simply put - It’s not murder. It would also be more effective than almost any other method.

  9. comment number 9 by: Ranando

    One of my main issues with our government both state and federal is that no longer does one need to be responsible for their actions, It’s always someone else’s fault.

    Crime in our country is out of control. Kids can’t even play in their front yards without the fear of being kidnapped and murdered or shot to death in a drive-by.

    Why is this? Because our leaders are more concerned about protecting the rights of non-Americans then the rights of Americans. If you’re a non-American our government will unleash its military to make sure you’re protected. Why then we will not unleash our military to make sure Americans are protected?

    To me the border issue is not just about wetbacks coming to my country illegally, it’s about protecting our people from our enemies, are we not at war? If we are in fact at war, then our homeland should be the number one objective to protect, the lives of Americans should be the top priority.

    Any means necessary should be taken to make sure that our enemies do not enter our country illegally. Any means necessary should be taken to make sure no one enters our country illegally.

    Yes, any means necessary.

  10. comment number 10 by: nunoftheabove

    Self Defense of a sovereign country.

    BTW, try reverse immigration and see how Mexico treats illegals in their country. The AK-47’s that those border guards carry are not decorative accessories.

  11. comment number 11 by: Basti

    As I’ve already stated this would be ‘killing’ and not ‘murder’. This nation is under attack and being invaded by illegals. These illegals should be shot on sight at the border and if caught later further inside the US they should be deported with the warning, “Next time we ‘kill you’ no matter where we find you.” Perhaps this would stop the illegal from being back in the US before the ink dries on the deportation order.

    This is ‘our’ country and the simple minded decisions of the US Supreme Court not withstanding only American citizens have any rights here.

  12. comment number 12 by: Chicago Ray

    Firstly for the obligatary and inevitable troll, Legal Immigrants always have been and always will be welcomed in America as the other have said here, however the illegal variation will no longer be tolerated, “zero tolerenco for illego amigo” as Archie Bunker may have said once…lol

    Couldn’t agree more with all the patriots here who are firmly behind America defending her borders and sovereignty as every other nation on the face of this earth does vociferously. Particularly Mexico, who are among the most brutal and uncivilized in the world to illegal invaders per se of “their” borders as we all know.

    Self defense of our nation is my standing on this question asked by Fred as well, furthermore I say shoot to kill anyone or anything that dare cross the border after a rigorous 6 month warning campaign throughout Mexico alerting all potential border crossers that the border crossing orgy of the past two decades known as “Fiesta Americano” is now officially over.

    Thereafter, from the designated point of law being established forward, all who then continue to ignore our laws and attempt illegal crossings of our well defined borders will be treated as enemy combatants and foreign invaders. At this point they will have opened themselves up to whatever means then become necessary to pacify and then expeditiously repatriate said offenders on the spot int he most cost effective manner, meaning no more free Abogado, do not pass go, collect no denero, and adios amigo.

  13. comment number 13 by: Sam Pierce

    While I don’t think this would ever be accepted by our society that has been duped into a self-destructive PC trance, I could never view the righteous defense of our nation as murder. If the military was on our border it would be a known fact and therefore the risk of crossing illegally would also be known. Any responsibility should fall squarely on the shoulders of those that attempt to invade, knowing the risk.

  14. comment number 14 by: Kate

    From one “damned-fool cracker airhead” to another…..no, it’s not murder when you are protecting your home. This is our home, and it’s being invaded!

    I don’t think we should shoot anyone in the streets with a real good tan. I think we need to seal off the border with those duly appointed to “protect and defend”. The gubmint could deputize the Minute Men. These are people will to do the job the gubmint isn’t due to their worry about whether or not the Mexicans will like them or not. Don’t care if they like us. But they damn better respect our borders!

    Side note: I’ve got a friend who is a “beaner”. That’s what he calls himself. That’s what he calls his mother, that’s what he calls his kids! Not all those Mexican, or of Mexican descent hold on to Mexico. They came legally, they became citizens, they assimilate to OUR culture. THEY SPEAK ENGLISH!

  15. comment number 15 by: GM Roper

    While I fully support a secure border, there is no way that I can agree with this. Arm the troops and BP but damn, “Shoot to kill?”

    The only way to stop the illegal influx is to go after the employers. Without the guts to take on the employers (who provide election cash of course) there won’t be a secure border.

  16. comment number 16 by: Pandora39

    I agree with the six month nation wide warning. Also agree that we need to go after the employers. If the companies didn’t hire the illegals they wouldn’t be coming. The same way we would not have a drug problem if there weren’t any buyers.

    But I have a question to ask? Do any of you really think that most of our U. S. soliders would “shot to kill’ unarmed women and children? Our soldiers are known world wide for being soft hearted. And believe me, the drug runners would put women and children out front because I also agree with the horrible behaviour south of the border: witness all of the women found buried just south of the border.

    So would this be murder or self defense? It could be both.

  17. comment number 17 by: Top Gun

    If a government official is not willing to protect and defend their country’s boarders, which they took an oath to do, then that government official is a traitor to his/her country and should be prosecuted for treason and given the death penalty and have it carried out immediately.

    If a citizen is not willing to defend his/her country’s boarders by any means necessary, then that citizen is a traitor to his/her country and should be prosecuted for treason and given the death penalty and have it carried out immediately.

    Any person attempting to invade this country illegally is doing so knowing they will receive “free” material and financial assistance they do not deserve which endangers our country’s economy and safety, and by doing so, they should be willing to accept death as their instant reward for the harm they bring to “our” country through their illegal act of invasion as an enemy.

    Hopefully these simple facts clear things up for the ignorant people who reside within the boarders of the United States of America.

  18. comment number 18 by: BigDadGib

    I say again, ILLEGAL means “NOT LEGAL”.

    If I break USA law, I pay for it.
    If I broke Mexican law in Mexico, I would pay for it.

    Which part of ILLEGAL don’t these people understand?

    An “ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSER” means… They are breaking USA law.

    Please…. Border Patrol… use the law, enforce the law and protect our borders.
    BIGDADGIB…

  19. comment number 19 by: ablur

    The first requirement of the castle act is to have a clearly designated home. We need a fence. A fence would establish a clear boundary that should not be crossed.
    I’ve recommended a 20 foot fence at the border with a clear sign. Then 50 yards of clear land well mined and chain guns with motion detectors every 150 yards. Fully computerize them and have them shoot anything that makes it through the land mines. On out side a 10 foot fence with similar declarations.
    The border patrol would simply respond to gun or mine action. Collect what is left and send Mexico a bill and the remains.
    This isn’t murder because the one killed chose to cross over a clearly marked boundary.

  20. comment number 20 by: Phred

    I guess you could be “selective” and shoot the men. Our military is well trained and have the ability to pick their target. Take out a few of the men in front, and I believe the women and children would turn and go back to their casa.
    I believe that you would not have to fire that many shots to get the point across.
    Maybe just drill a mini-gun a few yards in front of them. They might get the idea.
    Desperate times call for desperate measures.
    We could require that they carry a bleeding heart liberal under each arm as they go.

  21. comment number 21 by: jo

    Top Gun said :
    “If a government official is not willing to protect and defend their country’s boarders, which they took an oath to do, then that government official is a traitor to his/her country and should be prosecuted for treason and given the death penalty and have it carried out immediately.

    If a citizen is not willing to defend his/her country’s boarders by any means necessary, then that citizen is a traitor to his/her country and should be prosecuted for treason and given the death penalty and have it carried out immediately.”

    I can’t say it better. I am sick and tired of “oh…they just want a job, better life” Hello????? Don’t we all ? Breaking the law to achieve that goal means you pay the consequences.
    Since our government isn’t doing anything, I keep hoping the old wild west days come back…a few sure-shot vigilantes, laying in wait might send a strong message.
    Maybe we could bribe the mexican cartels to shoot them for us, as the put one foot on our soil. Make stopping illegals as profitable as drugs and you know damn well those people would get the message that WE THE PEOPLE are fed up and pissed off. By the way…they have no respect for our women and children..look at the murders, rapes, child molests, drunk driving records…I don’t care who we shoot. They want to toss moms and kids in the mess…fine..that is their choice. Mine is to shoot to kill.
    I really wish vigilante justice would reappear.

  22. comment number 22 by: Wild Thing

    “Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.” –Pericles

    Texas Fred I am with you 100%, I agree with you!

    Ronald Reagan was the greatest President in my lifetime. He did amnesty and later said it was a big mistake!

    He also warned us, “A nation without borders is not a nation.” quote by President Ronald Reagan.

    Does the U.S. have the right to militarize the border?

    Of course. The U.S. is a sovereign country. It doesn’t need Mexico’s permission to put troops on its own border.

    Even Article XVI of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which legally established most of today’s U.S.-Mexican border in 1848, stipulated that

    http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=141

    “Each of the contracting parties [Mexico and the United States] reserves to itself the entire right to fortify whatever point within its territory it may judge proper so to fortify for its security.”

    The 1853 Gadsden Purchase Treaty
    http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/mx1853.htm

    does not abrogate this Article. In fact, Article V of the Gadsden Purchase Treaty specifically states that Article XVI of the Guadalupe Hidalgo Treaty is still in effect.

    And the border is already militarized—on the Mexican side.

    Mexican Foreign Minister Derbez admits that there are Mexican troops on the border. In fact, he’s even boasted about it.

    In an interview with El Universal, Derbez tried to downplay the deployment of National Guard troops to the border. Here’s how El Universal explains Derbez’ view of the National Guard:

    “In an interview with El Universal, Foreign Minister Derbez guaranteed that the Americans who will be deployed to the border are ‘civilian sector persons’, although he admitted that they had been trained by the Pentagon and had even participated in the Iraq conflict. ‘They answer to the governor and are not part of the regular Army’ he mentioned.”

    [En entrevista con EL UNIVERSAL, el canciller Derbez aseguró que los elementos estadounidenses que serán desplegados en la frontera son "personas del sector civil", aunque aceptó que han sido entrenados por el Pentágono e incluso han participado en el conflicto de Irak. "Responden al gobernador y no son parte del Ejército regular", mencionó.]

    “He [Derbez] pointed out that, in contrast to the United States, Mexico does have regular Army troops on the border.

    The reality is that the Mexican Army is used extensively throughout Mexico to carry out police functions. Like checkpoints.

    But if we put the U.S. Army on the border, wouldn’t some ugly international incident ensue?

    There already are “ugly international incidents” on the border. Life on the U.S. border is already an ongoing, day-by-day, chaos.

    There are illegal aliens crossing daily, there are drug traffickers and people smugglers, there are incursions by the Mexican Army and who knows who else. There are criminal actions perpetrated against American citizens, against Mexican citizens, and against the illegal aliens themselves.

    Therefore, the “militarization of the border” is nothing to fear. Getting control of the border (our side) would show Mexico we are serious.

    So yes, put our military there. Our military protects our country, fights for our country, defends our freedom and liberty and ANYONE not respecting that comiong into our country illegally is a threat to our country. By coming in illegally they already prove they have no respect for our laws!

  23. comment number 23 by: Wild Thing

    Just one more thing, when a person or a county is strong on something like this. People need to realize that once it is known there is a shoot to kill, and those attempting to come in illegally will get the word believe me, it would stop a lot of them from trying.

  24. comment number 24 by: Katie

    Shooting someone trying to cross the border illegally (as long as they aren’t a US citizen then they can cross the border anytime) is not murder. It might stop the majority of crossers if they knew they could be shot and killed by authorities. It doesn’t make you a redneck bigot either.

    I’ve always thought that if we started to shoot those crossing our border we wouldn’t be in this mess now.

    Now Drug Runners pose a big problem is that they are armed and will fire on our border guards. The military would help solve this. We could have a reduction in drugs coming across the border if the drug lords learned that the military will shoot to kill anyone crossing the border. They might heavily arm the drug runners. But going up against well trained, well disciplined “real” troops would be different than the joke of the Mexican authorities.

    If Obama gets elected, you can expect to see open borders and full amnesty for anyone crossing our borders.

  25. comment number 25 by: Patrick Sperry

    Damn, was I a blood thirsty fool when I suggested nearly the same thing … How many years ago was that over at LNF..?

    I would give the troops ROE’s that stated, if you feel threatened, remove the threat. yes, a high tech fence would help, but boots on the ground that are allowed to do what is needed can never be replaced with whatever wiz bang thing of the day is put into place.

    At the same time employers of illegals would be looking at ten years, no time off for good behavior or work. Double the sentence per prior conviction.

  26. comment number 26 by: Debbie

    You know I’m with you on this one Fred. We are at war on the Southern border and to protect it we need to have trained fighters, fully equipped.

    We are armed and we will protect our home if it comes under attack.

  27. comment number 27 by: TexasFred

    BigDadGib, obeying the law is one thing, invading a nation is an altogether different matter, this situation is WAY beyond the capabilities of the Border Patrol, an organization I truly respect, but they aren’t able to cope, plain and simple, if they were we wouldn’t have 20 some odd million ILLEGALS in America…

    Border Patrol isn’t even an effective stop gap measure, we are, and have been for a very long time, at the point where full intervention by our National Guard is a priority…

    And why Guard, absolutely NO conflict with Posse Comitatus…

    Can’t have US breaking the law while we shoot the WETBACKS now can we?? :P

  28. comment number 28 by: Butch

    Of course it’s not murder. Only a dumb-arse liberal would even think that.

    If I were an Islamic terrorist and wanted to get into the United States that’s exactly how I would do it.

  29. comment number 29 by: BigDadGib

    I’m with you +100% Fred.

    But as of now, it is the Border Patrols job, to stop the guys with backs that are wet from swimming the Rio Grande, with what ever it takes…and it’s not happening.

    PS, I like the idea of a fence, land mines, sharp shooters, warning signs of such and more.

  30. comment number 30 by: Miss Beth

    Fred, we in Tucson are fighting this one HARD–particularly the RAZA studies being taught in our school district. I’ve been covering it extensively and you can visit the site for all the articles.

    No, it’s not murder. It’s war–pure and simple–and I fully believe in shoot to kill. I also like the 20ft wall with the landmines.

  31. comment number 31 by: Cary

    GM Roper said:

    The only way to stop the illegal influx is to go after the employers. Without the guts to take on the employers (who provide election cash of course) there won’t be a secure border.

    This is only one part of the puzzle. Yes, remove the temptation of the “reward” of the lucrative low paid laborer from the employer, and the draw for the person who wants to do that job at a lower wage than the citizen, and the attraction would diminish. Here in Arizona we have the new law that penalizes the company that knowingly hires illegals; the loss of your business license tends to slow some of the “under the table” hiring. We have already seen one consequence of this new law - fewer illegals are being arrested for crimes around here, since there are fewer illegals committing any crimes…

    However, there are plenty of other opportunities for anyone to make money in this great land - you don’t have to work for someone else to make decent money. A hard working person who really hustles can make good money doing just about anything, and if they only accept cash, then no one is going to know about it.

    I have said on my blog (and during my aborted attempt at running for President) that the only way to secure the border is to have human eyes watching and trained hands on the weapons. Automated anything is prone to bigger, badder, nastier mistakes than the human equivalent. The wildlife in the area doesn’t need to be cut down or blown up by unmanned, automated positions.

    There are areas where there is a geographic border (the Rio Grande and other river courses); where there is no obvious border then simple signs every ten yards warning trespassers that they will be shot on sight will suffice. An international education program, sent to the entire world, for about six months should be plenty - after that, it’s up to the individual countries to educate their own people. And then, yes, man the hard points at the border, with interlocking fields of fire. The National Guard or a Border Patrol that is actually allowed to PATROL the BORDER would be able to handle this with no sweat.

    As far as immigrants who want to join this community, then follow our laws and you will be welcomed with open arms. Break our laws, and be met with fire arms.

    Protecting this country’s sovereignty is not murder, it is self-defense, and the best survival course We The People could possibly take.

  32. comment number 32 by: TexasFred

    BigDadGib, it may be the BP’s job but they can’t do it, it is WAY past their limited capabilities now, THAT is the point, had they effectively DONE their job to begin with, we wouldn’t have this problem but the BP is rife with corruption, as is most any under paid and over worked agency, and that turning a blind eye if you will is exactly WHY we’re facing this turmoil today…

    It has outgrown the Border Patrol, they are extremely undermanned and even if they doubled their force they would STILL be undermanned…

    Call it 1st hand knowledge Gib…

  33. comment number 33 by: Aaron "Elephant Forum"

    I would agree to your point Fred that defending ones homeland is not murder. Placing the military on our boarder is very appropriate and would serve not only in defending our boarders, but would help to save lives…both American and Mexican. How many illegals in this country have killed/murdered innocent American lives, whether through drunk driving, robbery, rape, etc? How many Mexicans have lost their lives crossing the boarder? The point has been made many times as well as in the previous comments…if the folks south of us knew the boarder was secure, I believe this would help to eliminate the majority of attempts at crossing the boarder.

    The second point to be made concerns the hidden agenda of Mexican nationals. Many years ago a group was formed to promote unity within all Latin American peoples…called La Raza. La Raza Cósmica written by a Mexican writer, José Vasconcelos is were the name was taken from…I believe in the early to mid 1920’s. Modern day La Raza members have stated publicly that their goal is to out populate “White America” in the southwestern states. The old statement holds true to their desire….”If you can’t beat’em out breed’em”. It has already happened in some areas of the southwest. It does not help when leftist politicians that empathize to their cause make or change laws that assist La Raza and their supporters with their ultimate goal. It has been clear that they intend to create a new unified Mexican state encompassing California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Utah, and Colorado. — Not my words but theirs.

    It is quite unfortunate that we have too many politicians without any testicular fortitude that will stand up and keep our boarders secure. This includes our president and all of his “compassionate conservatism” crap. Securing our boarders is compassion not only for American citizens of all colors, but Mexicans as well.

    Finally to the point of the rednecks on the boarder. If the politicians (Bush) would uphold their constitutional duties and protect this country, good men and women would not have to sit on the front line doing their best to protect a very small section of the US boarder. Troops are the answer. We don’t have the money you say…well maybe if pinheads like Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, Robert Byrd of West Virginia would stop spending our hard earned tax money on naming buildings after themselves, we could divert the money to the boarder…NAWWW…that would be toooo complicated.

  34. comment number 34 by: Right Turn - Your Turn

    I believe Fred, you have your own army of supporters right here, making sure your accuser gets the picture of the right choice. I believe the right turn is an about face!! Pronto! We need to protect our side at minimum the same level that Mexico protects its borders. Now, given that our country is still (we hope for a while longer) the greatest sovereign democratic nation in the world, we should be exemplary both in our efforts to protect our citizens and to provide a solid education, demand patriotic trust, and then provide a timely, warm welcome to legal immigrants, who have willfully chosen to become a United States Citizen. By the way thank you for reminding me it is FLAG DAY!! (Been a little side tracked with Rachel and her broken arm this week). What an appropriate day to receive the comments from your blog followers on the true American way. I do agree in the Christian conservative world, it would be appropriate to provide some form of warning before “shooting to kill” mainly because unfortunately our leaders have let us look like lazy, no-good wimps down there, and just suddenly becoming “violent” (in the minds of the liberals and ignorant) wouldn’t be an exemplary way to start this process. Forge a fence, delinate the border with technological oomph & fortify it with military presence–a winning triad!! Mostly, I like the military presence your opinion requires, because it reminds other nations that we stand up for ourselves, and we protect what God has allowed us to build for oursleves. it makes me wonder, if we’d done this a couple years before 2001, would we be having to discuss this? Would we look like a soft nation, if we’d stood on our ground borders in the 70s and 80s? What can we as citizens do to make sure now, our current government understands our opinion loud and clear?

  35. comment number 35 by: mrchuck

    I AGREE! Place mines, and set up signs in the Swahili language, watutu dailect.
    Let them get blown up attempting to cross into the USA.
    The next day, there will not be one illegal alien attempting to enter this way.

  36. comment number 36 by: Chris McClure

    How best to handle the issue of illegal immigration and to protect our border is something whith which I have struggled for some time. A policy of shoot first and ask questions later is not, in my opinion, the best answer to the problem. As a Christ-follower, I believe that the unnecessary taking of life is wrong. In the case of shooting illegal border crossers I would have to consider it murder unless the force were necessary within a lawfully conducted arrest. Crossing the border illegally is a crime and the person committing the act should be treated as such. I also believe that it is our right, and indeed our obligation to protect our home. If an armed assailant attacks my home, my family, or me, he’d better know how to use what he’s carrying.

    The first thing that we must do to stop illegal immigration is to enforce the law. Arrest them, treat them to due process of law, and ship them back. If we catch them in the act of crossing the border they must be treated no differently than any other lawbreaker. Arrest them. If they resist arrest, respond in force commensurately. We can’t just catch them and line them up against a wall and shoot them. If we believe that stopping illegal immigration is part of defending our home, then we also need to think about what we are defending. Part of that is the right to due process of law. History is filled with examples of crimes committed by governments and people who felt they were above their own laws.

    Should building a border fence be part of protecting our borders? I don’t know. It brings to my mind pictures of the Berlin Wall. Given the current political landscape in this country, I wonder if in a few years its function may become to keep people in rather than to keep people out.

    We need to penalize those who aid illegal immigration. This includes employers (although I don’t believe that employers should be in the law enforcement business) and it includes countries that encourage, or look the other way, in regard to illegal immigration. This is a difficult issue however because our economic well-being (especially here in Texas) is closely tied to some of those other countries. I am thinking specifically of Mexico with whom we have an extensive trade relationship. The part with which I am most familiar is cattle. There are many hundreds of thousands of Mexican cattle imported into the U.S. each year — legally and under carefully controlled guidelines. They are placed on pasture and in feedlots throughout Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. If we place sanctions on Mexico, what will be the impact to our economy?

    It is a difficult issue. Shooting them at the border? No. That would be murder unless they are armed and firing weapons as they cross. Enforcing and strengthening existing laws? Yes. Arrest, treat with due-process of law and deport.

  37. comment number 37 by: TexasFred

    Well Chris, on about 99% of the issues we’re together, this ain’t one of em…

    I respect your Christian views on this, I really do, but if Pope Benedict breaks into MY house, I’m gonna shoot him..

    It’s that simple, we are at WAR, and in WAR, people die, that’s the breaks, if WAR wasn’t a nasty business we’d call it playtime…

    And Chris, I have seen arrest and deportation up close and personal, I was in El Paso for 9 years, I saw it ALL, very up close and personal, BP made a round up, took em to the new facility on Montana Blvd, processed em and put em on the bus and took em back to Juarez…

    In at least 75% of the cases the wetbacks that had just been deported were BACK in the USA before the Border Patrol bus was…

    SHOOT TO KILL… They don’t keep coming back that way…


  38. [...] Is it Murder or Self Defense? - Texas Fred’s [...]

  39. comment number 39 by: Kate

    Chris, the Tenth Commandment comes to mind.

  40. comment number 40 by: Kate

    Ooops, meant to say Eighth and Tenth.

  41. comment number 41 by: Phred

    Fred is correct, they almost always beat the bus back.

    Penalize the employer, does not work either, we already have means to do this.

    Not too long ago, my wife and I went to Juarez ( legally ), to buy medicine. Saturday afternoon about 1 pm there was 5 lanes of traffic coming back this way, and it took 45 minutes to move thru the line. I`m not sure they were all Americans going back across from buying medicine…

  42. comment number 42 by: TexasFred

    VIII. “You shall not steal.

    X. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

    Great analogy Kate… ;)

  43. comment number 43 by: Pandora39

    Did anyone else read the article about how many BP guards are making spare money on their time off by being “mules and/or coyotes”? We don’t only have an open border, we have a welcome to you all sign. “Just wait until I’m off duty and I’ll get you across.”

    This is why we do need troops to go in. I believe that the majority of the guards are honest but it doesn’t take very many bad ones to keep our border wide open. But I think Canada will harden their border with us before we harden the United States - Mexican border no matter who gets elected this fall.

    And Fred, if I lived in Texas, close to the border especially, I would probably feel just as you feel. It makes me angry as hell that I don’t feel safe in going to the Texas mountains and tent camp by myself. It is the illegals who make me feel unsafe. I know far too many of them are criminals of the basest sort.

    But I still don’t think that most of our American troops could bring themselves to “shoot to kill’ unarmed people, especially women and children. They would have no problem with drug dealers and the troops would harden. But remember Viet Nam. Did our troops ever quit picking up the babies left on the trail and did they ever quit feeding the kids? We seem to be fighting the same sort of war here.

    But we will have to “shoot to kill” to get the Mexican governments attention.

  44. comment number 44 by: TexasFred

    Pandora, let me enlighten you a bit, a woman or a kid will kill you, or get you killed, about as quickly as an armed drug dealer, and just for kicks, tell me what a drug runner looks like…

    I can tell you what I think a drug runner looks like, male/female, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, age unknown, may be as young as infant or as old as Methuselah, could possibly be armed with gun/knife/bomb and would have NO compunctions about blowing up untold innocent citizens if cornered…

    May be dressed like a character from a Cheech and Chong movie or possibly a GQ model, or anywhere in between…

    Here’s the deal, if it crosses our border at ANYTHING OTHER than a legal documented crossing, it is an invader and must be assumed armed and dangerous…

    Hard hearted?? Maybe, but I want America to be here for my grand-kids to enjoy and at the rate we’re giving America away, that’s not going to happen, and Pandora, I have absolutely NO problem with shooting anything crossing the border, the wild critters gotta eat too…

  45. comment number 45 by: Pandora39

    I agree with you on the looks of the drug runners, I blew that one. I guess what I am trying to say is giving the order “shoot to kill” is one thing. Having it obeyed is another. We have the best, most moral armed troops of any country in the world. Which is why I think it would be hard for our troops. They would pause too often and too many would die.

    I did have a brother and two brother-in-laws in Viet Nam in 68, 69 and 70. So I believe completely about the exploding babies and the nine year old terrrorists. We are fighting the same type of fight in Iraq and we are also starting to fight it on the Mexican border. The drug cartels will not give up easily and will use any means necessary to move their product.

    You are hard hearted exposoing those wild critters to contaimated food.

  46. comment number 46 by: Top Gun

    Obviously there are those that feel enough crimes are not committed each day in this country by illegal invaders to warrant drastic measures yet.

    For those who feel we should continue to “wait” on our “government’ to act, what is the number we have to hit for rapes, robberies, murder, “CHILD MOLESTATION”, car jackings, uninsured accidents where people get injured, etc., etc BEFORE IT IS OK FOR THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY TO DEFEND WHAT IS THEIRS IN THE FIRST PLACE, “OUR” COUNTRY?

    Illegal Alien Crime in America
    • 12 Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens. It translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens.*
    • 13 Americans are killed each day by drunk illegal aliens drivers, for an annual total death toll of 4,745.*
    • 8 American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day, for a annual total of 2,920.*
    * Quotes from U.S. Representative Steve King, R-Iowa.

  47. comment number 47 by: Bill Smith, ARRA Editor

    Our borders must be secure. All borders which is a difficult task. Looks like instead of providing people with unemployment benefits and SSI for the general able bodied, we could use them as coast watchers etc. If they don’t work, no more pay. We should use the National Guard for its intended purposes to GUARD the NATION. Deployment of Active troops may also be required with “black ops” to take out illegal alien smugglers. Barring seeking asylum for political reasons leading to death or imprisonment for advocating free speech, religion, etc, the borders should be closed.

    Even war, we take prisoners when the option exists before we “kill” the enemy. The same should be the practice at the border. However, there will be on occasion those who may be killed and unfortunately they should have obeyed our borders.

    Now we have the question of where he borders actually are. Time to clearly define our borders beyond just geographic points. This is important, because it would be illegal to kill another person when they are still on land which they are legally entitled to be on. In other-words there can be no cross border shootings because the person on the other side may be entitled to be where they are - in Mexico or Canada.

    If we were to prevent the hiring of illegal aliens, restrict borders access, deport ALL illegals, including 90,000 illegal alien Irish and all other people groups, stop all social benefits for illegal, we would see 80% of the problem evaporate and the US would send a clear signal that the US borders are just that borders. Do not cross without permission. I hope the other commenters agree that it doesn’t matter if you are a Canadian crossing the US border or a Mexican crossing the US border, you need our permission to enter.

    Also time to stop recruiting legal workers from overseas until we have eliminated ALL unemployment in the U.S. We recruit doctors, professors, engineers, sports players, etc. to replace Americans. Sound harsh - it is! Time to get serious.

    And for those of us who believe our borders are important, we can’t forget the borders of our disconnected states: Hawaii and Alaska or the borders of our varied territories,:Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.

  48. comment number 48 by: Top Gun

    Any so-called “citizen” who can not bring themselves to defend this country against illegal invaders, by “any” means necessary that will bring the invasion to an abrupt stoppage, who cross our boarder illegally and molest our children has NO RIGHT to call themselves an American Citizen.

    They are spineless traitors to this country, PERIOD!

    If child molestation is unable to make your blood boil enough to defend your own country against an invading force, then American citizenship is not for you and you have no business occupying space within the boarders of the United States of America.

  49. comment number 49 by: Top Gun

    Please excuse my typos on the spelling of “border”. This subject pushes my button.

  50. comment number 50 by: TexasFred

    Top Gun, no apologies necessary, it’s a hot button for me too, and I feel pretty much the same way, an American that won’t stand and fight for America isn’t much of an American…

  51. comment number 51 by: Kate

    Looks like we’re becoming a nation of semi-Americans….and that just won’t do!

  52. comment number 52 by: TexasFred

    Yeah but Kate, look at the bright side, we’re a hell of bunch of redneck gun toting NASCAR lovin’ beer drinkin’ murderin’ white trash.. :P

    I took my wife to Redneck Saturday night dinner, we went to the bowling alley and had 4 corn dogs, 3 beers each, bowled a few frames and then we hurried back to our old double-wide so we could sit out on the redwood deck and watch the coondogs sleep and sip some ’shine…

    Damn life is just too good sometimes…

    P.S. I have just been informed that I am a NAZI…

    We’re ALL Nazis and we sound like the Nazis did as they attacked the Jews as invaders…

    This is the 2nd time someone has called me a NAZI over this and the 3rd time that certain individuals have attempted to imply that there is some veiled anti-Semitism in my words…

    Let me be crystal clear for those of you that are seeking to take this to a whole different level, I am NOT a NAZI, I AM of direct German decent but that is completely beside the point in this issue…

    I have NEVER, not once said one word to denigrate nor disrespect the Jewish people or their faith, not in ANY way, and I defy any of you to prove otherwise…

    Listen, I really don’t care what you say about me but have the balls to speak the truth if you’re going to take ME to task…

    Did I make some seriously disparaging remarks regarding Michelle Malkin? Yes I did and I make NO apology for it…

    Do I believe we must maintain and defend our borders at all costs and by any means necessary?? You’re damned right I do and if that makes me a racist or a NAZI in your eyes then YOU need to rethink exactly where YOUR real loyalties lie, for damn sure they’re not Conservative, perhaps RINO, maybe even closet libber, but if you’re not ready and willing to defend this nation against the invasion She is currently undergoing, YOU are a useless POS an don’t deserve the title AMERICAN!

  53. comment number 53 by: Robert

    Step one, Stiffen the penalty for hiring ILLEGAL’s to include DEPORTATION of the employer (No matter where he is from)

    Step two, Inform the 20 million illegal’s currently residing in OUR country they have 2 weeks to work their way back to WHEREVER they came from. OR ELSE

    Step Three; ELSE; We start rounding the illegals up and load them into C-130’s and fly them over Mexico city. When the C-130 full of illegal’s is at 30,000 ft, we commence kicking them out the door lighting every fifth one on fire for accuracy of the drop (like a tracer,) every 20th one can have a parachute.

    Step four, Allow landowners on the US side of the border to dictate WHERE the turrets and land mines should be placed. Ask for volunteers to man the turrets…

    Step 5, watch the graffiti, crime, resource drain on our economy disappear.

  54. comment number 54 by: Tom

    Wow, I thought that I was the lone voice in the wilderness about being invaded by our neighbors to the south. Shoot to kill is defintely NOT murder, it is protecting our border, way too late, but protect it we must by any means necessary. Thanks for re-enforcing my firmly held convictions.

  55. comment number 55 by: Ranando

    One way to get a handle on illegals is to offer any American a $ 1,000.00 for any illegal they turn in.

    Create a bounty if you will.

  56. comment number 56 by: TexasFred

    comment number 55 by: Ranando
    Today at 9:55 pm (2 minutes ago) e

    One way to get a handle on illegals is to offer any American a $ 1,000.00 for any illegal they turn in.

    Create a bounty if you will.

    Dead or Alive??

  57. comment number 57 by: Kate

    Isn’t it odd that most people spouting that “Nazi” label so freely towards those on the right, are the same people who actually emulate Nazism?

    Just 3 of the “25 points”:

    13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

    14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

    15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

    Hmmm…. Yep. Odd.

  58. comment number 58 by: Miss Beth

    Kate, where are these points from? I’d like a copy of the whole list, please.

  59. comment number 59 by: TexasFred

    comment number 57 by: Kate
    Today at 10:13 pm (35 minutes ago) e

    Isn’t it odd that most people spouting that “Nazi” label so freely towards those on the right, are the same people who actually emulate Nazism?

    What’s even more odd is this, the ones hurling the NAZI insults claim to be ON the right, they claim, in some cases, to be Conservative, and I feel that at best they’re simply misguided RINOs…

    Go figure…

  60. comment number 60 by: Murray

    There is absolutely no doubt that this country is being invaded by illegal aliens. They aren’t coming here for a “better life.” They are coming here for the money and the “freebies.” They still fly their flag from the puke-hole Mexico and they continue to rape and murder our citizens. As far as I’m concerned, illegal aliens are the enemy and anyone who supports or hires them is aiding and abetting the enemy, therefore committing treason. By God, it’s time to take a stand before this country is wiped out! And who is this invasion hurting most of all? It’s middle-class Americans of all races. It’s time for the silent majority to do whatever it takes to protect this country!

  61. comment number 61 by: cristina

    I am against illegal immigrants to have the oportunity to take advantage of this great country. I came here legally, and I expect everyone to do so.

    I have one question: There are countries that don’t allow their people to apply for a visa to come here. What should we do?

  62. comment number 62 by: LoneRider

    Up until the very moment I read Bill Smith’s comments I somewhat believed in what he said. Sadly who said the drug runners, car thiefs, rapists, car jackers, and the like would be the ones who self deport because they are out of a job. Seems to me the ones who most deeply deserve a killing probably don’t hold a steady job anyway.

    Now I would agree with the notion we need to stop making it a worthwhile trip top come across the border, the only thing I would change to Fred’s suggestion is to add a warming shot, a *single* warning shot that is.

    For those who don’t know me, 41 years old, 2-1/2 Y.O native Texan daughter and a baby boy to be in 5 weeks, became a permanent resident about 4 1/2 years ago. And I feel I am more American than 1/2 the people I see running around N. Texas.

    Tom

  63. comment number 63 by: Kate

    Sorry Miss Beth, I should have included the link:
    http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

    Fred, if it’s so called conservatives throwing that word around, I truly DO fear for our future! What are they teaching in schools these days? Evidently, it’s not even close to an accurate history.


  64. [...] http://texasfred.net/archives/1281 [...]

  65. comment number 65 by: Bull

    I’ve said it before at my own blog, so I’ll say it here…

    Two (2) fences, not one. One hundred feet apart. The area in between should be sown with land mines and the inner wall should be armed with .30 caliber chain guns set on gimbals and wired to motion detectors. Anything or anyone entering the ‘zone’ would be hosed. Leave the rotting carcasses in there as a warning.

    As you can tell I’m FED UP with the crime and crap these ILLEGAL aliens bring to our Nation - my beloved United States of America! You want in? Fine! Join us legally and get rich - like the owners of my favorite eatin’ spots in the Mobile area.

    They are LEGAL Mexican immigrants that came here with a plan in mind and were willing to work for it. They now own not one, but three establishments that are packed every day of the year. You see, that is the American Dream.

    I say let the bullets fly. As I understand it, the land owners down there next to the border are considering that very answer to the scum wrecking their property. The desert is a big place, you know…

    Bull, out.

  66. comment number 66 by: Alfie

    An interesting post and thread. I’d say the question asks for too simple an answer. The US Border Patrol if properly supported and managed could do the job. I think using the military as backup is appropriate but I can’t accept using the military as judge,jury and executioner. I think illegal immigration is indeed a big problem but I don’t see how establishing a free fire zone on American soil is any more acceptable than the root problem.

  67. comment number 67 by: Kate

    Alfie, tell that to the numerous children who have been sexually assaulted by illegals.  Tell that to the dead in our street, killed by previously deported illegals.  “Free fire zone”?  We’ve already got that.  What we don’t have is a secure border!

  68. comment number 68 by: TexasFred

    Well Alfie, are you going to offer any plausible solutions or is mundane rhetoric all you have??

  69. comment number 69 by: Robert

    Alfie, WHO says it has to be on OUR side of the border? Time to tell it like it is, time to set up camp in BORDER towns on MEXICO’s side of the border THAT’S WHERE ALL THE BS IS COMING FROM! Hello…. Hello Any body hearing this??????

  70. comment number 70 by: Alfie

    First off I didn’t say anything about not securing the border.Securing the border must include internal actions such as punishing Americans that knowingly hire and support the criminal elements. Second the use of the military in a support role is a very plausible solution ala Northern Ireland back in the day. On any given day back then the police and even the mailman were tailed by troops. It lent for a surreal environment but it got the job done.  I just don’t thinking mining the border,posting snipers or such is the answer. As for rhetoric- the countless victims of criminal aliens are best served by changing obscene domestic policies such as sanctuary cities and preventing local law enforcement to act on illegal aliens. I’m just saying there are a lot of things we can and need to do before creating a system that has our military personnel hunting humans.

  71. comment number 71 by: Alfie

    @ Robert the comments crossed. Are you talking an unilateral action or supporting something like Plan Mexico the closer to home version of Plan Colombia ?

  72. comment number 72 by: Robert

    Alfie, AGREED! ALL of those things and more. BUT those things should have been done long before now and from what I can tell the chances of getting them done with the next president are slim to none. (McCain or Hussien Obama)If our Government wont act in our best interest when is it acceptable for the PEOPLE to act? Never? we just take it right? nothing else can be done as long a BUSINESS and Government are in cahoots.

  73. comment number 73 by: Top Gun

    Alfie, let me guess, you are one of those citizens that think the government will all of the sudden reverse their past actions 180 degrees in not defending the borders and America will return to the Leave it to Beaver days here in the near future and past “actions” have “no” meaning to “future actions” in your bubbled sphere.
     
    P.S. Homework assignment:
     
    Read second paragraph of post 17

  74. comment number 74 by: TexasFred

    Top Gun, you can go ahead and say it, Alfie is a moron… :P

  75. comment number 75 by: Alfie

    Top Gun No I’m not one of those citizens,in truth you are if you think we will militarize our border that being a 180 degree turn. As for the “Leave it to Beaver” days that’s a funny slip. If we were back to those days we would have a government that would have Gen. Joseph Swing round up illegals in the States and effectively send a message to the Mexican government to play an active role in curbing the illegal flow and trafficking. Leave it to Beaver 1957 Operation Wetback ‘53-’54. I’m off a couple of years but then again I’m a moron.

  76. comment number 76 by: TexasFred

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

    Operation Wetback was a 1954 project of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to remove about four million illegal immigrants from the southwestern United States, with a focus on Mexican nationals.

    Burgeoning numbers of illegal aliens prompted President Dwight D. Eisenhower to appoint his longtime friend, General Joseph Swing, as INS Commissioner. According to Attorney General Herbert Brownell Jr., Eisenhower had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration immediately upon taking office. In a letter to Sen. William Fulbright, Eisenhower quoted a report in The New York Times that said: “The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican ‘wetbacks’ (rooted from the watery route taken by the Mexican immigrants across the Rio Grande) to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government.”

    Eisenhower became increasingly concerned that profits from illegal labor led to corruption. The operation was modeled after the deportation program that invited American citizens of Mexican ancestry to go back to Mexico during the Great Depression because of the bad economy north of the border.

  77. comment number 77 by: Top Gun

    Alfie:
     
    Go educate yourself and discover what the definition of “enemy” is.
     
    After you are comfortable and feel like you can answer that correctly on a test, go educate yourself further and discover what the definition of “defend” is.
     
    After you are comfortable and feel you can pass a test answering the definition of those two words, please tell me why I, or the citizens of this country, which is “OUR COUNTRY”, do not have a right to defend it from enemy invaders in any way we see fit to assure it stays “our country”.
     
    If you do not feel you have that right and do not feel you have the spine to do so, then perhaps you should follow in the foot steps of “your” ancestors in red coats back to Canada and let the real men stay behind to send the message, again, to the world, this is OUR COUNTRY and it will remain a free country governed as a republic until we are all dead, just as “my” ancestors made it and passed it onto me.
     
    It is laughable you insinuate “I” am perhaps a traitor when it is “you” who obviously has been castrated.

  78. comment number 78 by: Phred

    Alfie, like I said … “The friend of my enemy, is my enemy”.

  79. comment number 79 by: TexasFred

    Looks like Alfie is making all kinds of new friends… :P

  80. comment number 80 by: BobF

    WOW, 78 comments and me without a computer while visiting family in the Peoples Socialistic Republic of New York. 

  81. comment number 81 by: TexasFred

    BobF, believe it or not, I was seriously wondering, where the hell is Bob??

    Glad to know you’re OK and among the living…

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