Utah’s Gun Permit Popular With Nonresidents

Utah’s Gun Permit Popular With Nonresidents

James Roe, a 64-year-old computer consultant from rural Pennsylvania, spent a recent Saturday in a Pittsburgh suburb learning about riflings, hangfires and powder charges. The gun safety class was for people seeking a concealed weapon permit in Utah, some 1,500 miles away. Never mind that Mr. Roe has not been to Utah in 20 years and has no plans to visit anytime soon.

Like thousands of other gun owners who will likely never set foot in Utah, Mr. Roe wants a permit there for one reason: It allows him to carry his 45-caliber automatic pistol in 32 other states that recognize or have formal reciprocity with Utah’s gun regulations.

“I think that all states should be as broad based with reciprocity and as careful as the state of Utah is,” said Mr. Roe, who wants the option of bringing his handgun with him when he visits his son in Ohio, both for protection and for target practice. (Ohio does not honor Pennsylvania weapon permits.)

With the Supreme Court ruling last week that the Second Amendment’s guarantee of an individual’s right to bear arms applies to state and local laws, Utah is a popular player in Americans’ efforts to legally obtain firearms. The state is issuing what has become the permit of choice for many gun owners.

Full Story Here:
Utah’s Gun Permit Popular With Nonresidents

Just so everyone knows, in case there is someone out there that doesn’t know or hasn’t heard, TexasFred loves him some guns, supports the Second Amendment and believes we should all have the right to open carry as long as there are no serious legal issues in your past that haven’t been settled and/or expunged.

I am a strong believer in concealed carry too. That said, in MY opinion;

Anyone that has a Utah Concealed Handgun License should have that license suspended until such time as they have moved to Utah and are a legal resident OF Utah.

I am all for reciprocity, a CHL from an issuing state to a legal RESIDENT of that state should be honored by ALL states that allow concealed carry. Reciprocity is NOT my issue.

But Utah’s permit program has its critics. Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, asserted that Utah’s policy was dangerous because many states are lax in submitting felony and mental health records to the federal database used for background checks.

“I think it’s absolutely shameful and ludicrously irresponsible to say that anybody anywhere who wants one of our concealed carry permits, and thus will be able to carry legally in dozens of states, can just log on to our Web site and pay 60 bucks and that’s all she wrote,” Mr. Hamm said.

I have NO USE for the *Brady Bunch*, for the most part they are nothing but a bunch of anal retentive libber gun grabbers that want noting more than to disarm the American people.

In this particular instance I am forced to agree with Peter Hamm, too many issuers are lax in the way they do background checks.

Background checks and training. Those are supposed to be the whole purpose of the CHL, it’s issuance and possession. Supposedly, the CHL holder has been fully vetted, trained and is thought to be mature and capable of carrying, and USING a concealed weapon responsibly.

So one would think, but, one may be wrong!

Another source of contention is that the class does not require any actual shooting. One could conceivably obtain a Utah permit without ever having fired a gun. Nevada and New Mexico recently stopped honoring Utah permits because the class does not meet its live fire requirements.

“Residents of other states should be aware that people who have a Utah concealed weapon permit may not have actually fired a weapon,” said Dee Rowland, chairwoman of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah. “I think that would be quite shocking to members of the public.”

And that, my friends, is the crux of the matter. I am of the opinion that there should be a minimum requirement for any and ALL that seek to become holders of a CHL, and I am of the opinion that this minimum needs to be uniform and requirements set very high.

Make it difficult to obtain a CHL. Make the applicant work for it. Make it so that the CHL holder is a cut above others and is well qualified in ALL areas of gun safety and operation, especially the most important part, LIVE FIRE!

Watch this video from WFAA Channel 8 here in Dallas. They cover the differences between Utah vs Texas concealed handgun laws.


So, let me put it like this; you can walk into the DMV and just ACE the written test, but you’ve never driven a car. Same premise. You can read all the books about guns in the world, you can study every written or media piece about guns, their capabilities, their handling, their range and a ton of stuff.

Just because you can pass a written exam doesn’t make you a GUN HAND, and there’s a whole bunch of real GUN HANDS that won’t have a damned thing to do with you, simply because you are a lazy ASS that didn’t, or wouldn’t take the time and spend the money to get a CHL that had a bit of work involved.

One other thing, and here is where I am going to piss off more than a few folks that are CHL holders; just because you have a full blown CHL, one that required you to actually study, for several hours, just because you went out there and were able to qualify because you could shoot the pistol you brought, and could actually HIT the target, doesn’t necessarily make you a GUN HAND either.

It means that if you are, or have been, previously trained in proper gun safety and procedures, you now know the rules of having a CHL. The course itself will NOT make you a trained gun fighter. It teaches you to punch holes in paper targets.

They aren’t living and breathing human beings, and they are NOT shooting back!

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19 Responses to Utah’s Gun Permit Popular With Nonresidents

  1. Vigilante says:

    “Anyone that has a Utah Concealed Handgun License should have that license suspended until such time as they have moved to Utah and are a legal resident OF Utah.”

    Fred, I spent my time on the ranges and in the safety classes, I was in the Korean war (52 & 53) when the targets WERE shooting back, and I have a Utah permit. I do quite a bit of travelling and where a Washington license only covers 11 states, Utah’s covers 32. Do you still think I should have my Utah permit cancelled? Just asking……….

    • TexasFred says:

      As a matter of fact Vigilante, YES, I do… You are NOT a Utah resident, and that is the reason why…

      Your drivers license comes from your HOME STATE, and your gun license should too, and with ALL due respect to your military service, it has NOTHING to do with civilian carry and concealment…

      If that angers you, well, this wasn’t directed at you specifically, I didn’t know you had a Utah license, and quite frankly, I don’t care, Utah issues a piece of shit CHL and it needs to be REVOKED. ANYONE that doesn’t go through a FULL COURSE, in their state of domicile, and ANYONE that doesn’t go to the range and PROVE their qualifications should NOT be licensed to carry a concealed weapon from a state they don’t live in and one that doesn’t require qualifications…

      And Vigilante, you should know by now, I NEVER post a piece I don’t believe in, if it hurts your feelings, that’s too bad… It really is. I do NOT post any certain way nor do I opine in any particular way case specific to the person reading, whether they are a friend, a maker of donations or a bitter enemy…

      That is what makes THIS blog, The TexasFred Blog, a great blog and one trusted by many readers that KNOW I will present sane and valuable opinions that are as 100% truthful as they can be made… I don’t cut corners and I don’t pull punches…

      And remember, my TAG LINE since DAY 1: No Hold Barred: News OPINION and Commentary!

  2. BobF says:

    My son sent away for a Utah permit against my advice. Instead, he listened to the owner of a gun store he went to. He sent his money off but never got the permit…lost his money.

  3. Robert says:

    Personally I’d like to see every state in the nation have the same concealed carry law that AZ has. No permit needed. You have the right to bear arms PERIOD. Do I like knowing that there maybe felons having guns concealed? Nope, but what I do like is NOW in AZ good folks can level the field.

    Whatever state you are in you have to abide by those laws. (Or risk the consequences) I live in Cali, so I’m always outside the law in certain situations. I’ll deal with it if it’s needed.

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  5. Texasperated says:

    Fred,

    Whether or not one should have a Utah permit from outside the state (which by the way disallows reciprocity in a number of states for the very reason cited — it is not the holder’s home state), I think you and I are agreed on this matter: I do not have a right to own or carry a firearm because either the state of Utah or the state of Texas say I do. I have a right to own and carry a firearm because I am endowed by my creator with certain unalienable rights and among them are LIFE….

    My right to protect myself and my family precedes and supercedes anything the government of Utah, Texas, or tne Newnited States says. Is it possible that they are giving them away like cracker jacks prizes? Maybe so, but so what? The license does not protect you from bad guys — the gun does that. The license protects you from the good guys; and the Utah CHL requires the same FBI background check and fingerprint as does the Texas CHL. One may not be a certified “good guy” with a Utah permit, but he is a certified “non-bad guy.”

  6. Overall, I don’t disagree with your conclusions if you’re looking to acquire a license for concealed carry, depending upon the laws of your state. In Fornicalia you can generally forget about what we call here a CCW permit. Most Sheriffs in the state (responsible for issuance), frankly, issue them in either extreme circumstances or to their friends.

    Enjoy your carry “rights” whilst you have them, peeps.

    BZ

  7. TexasFred says:

    Usually my articles leave nothing misunderstood, apparently I am losing my touch…

    PAY ATTENTION FOLKS, it’s all about the way Utah goes about the issuance OF the damned license, you do NOT have much of a course, you never fired a damned gun and a great many of the people that attend a Utah *short course* leave with their heads up their asses, a permit in their pocket and the idea that they are Dirty Frickin’ Harry in their goofy brains…

    Some of you need to think about this, is it OK to drive a car even if you’ve never taken a written test or a driving test?

    Let’s start taking guys off the street, finger printing em and doing a background check and if all is well, sit em down and explain Criminal Justice and statutes for a week and then hand em a gun, badge, commission and a car and turn em loose as police officers…

    How about flying an airplane? Let’s just start giving airline pilots and fighter pilots a 3 or 4 hour talk on how it works and if they can BUY the license, 747 here they come…

    Yeah, all of that is silly… So is handing a dumbass a license to conceal if you don’t even know if he/she can operate the pistol…

    You want to hang out and play with em, by all means, go for it… Freedom to be killed by a dumbass is ALL yours…

    This isn’t about gun rights, it’s about common sense and assholes that are taking this Utah course that have none, and walk out feeling 10 feet tall and bullet proof…

    And once again, it’s easy to spot out the folks that think with their passions and not their heads… It’s easy to spot out those that have carried for a living and don’t just go *punch paper*… And BTW, carried for a living and came back to tell the tale…

    Vigilante brought up his military service, and I respect him FOR that service, LEOs and civilians carrying legally don’t have the luxury of military backup, air strikes, mortars and the like… On the street, in intelligence work, narcotics, whatever the case may be, you are out there one on MANY at times and SKILL is ALL you have…

    Any SOB that won’t take the time or effort to go through even the most rudimentary gun training is beneath contempt in my not so damned humble opinion…

    And ANY state that would issue a license to such an individual needs to have their ability to issue said license suspended until such time as that rudimentary training is a part of the curriculum…

  8. Bull says:

    I am in agreement with Fred.

    I, too, am a veteran & a life-long shooter. I also have a CCW and tote a .45 Colt single action revolver every day / every where.

    Now the truth is that I don’t want just anyone carrying concealed. Here in Alabama our law allows for open carry (though you may have problems convincing the local LEOs of that fact) & concealed carry with a permit from your county. I assure you that Mobile Co. DOES do a intensive background check.

    Other States, maybe not so much.

    What we law-abiding, Constitution-loving, Americans do not need is someone who should never have got a CCW to get one because he sent in the proper payment and forged documents to someplace a thousand miles away.

  9. Robert says:

    Torn on the issue Fred. Since in Cali as BZ said a CCW is damn near impossible.
    A CCW license issued to anyone kind of defeats the purpose of having to be licensed for it doesn’t it?

    Seems to me the problem is what is allowed in which state. I can drive to the border of AZ, my Guns and ammo have to be locked in the trunk while in Cali (Basically) but when I get to the AZ side I am allowed to conceal my loaded firearm on my person. Personally I love that. It also means there will be a few dumbasses carrying that potentially have never fired a gun. (To your point about Utah CCW) Does that make me feel better? Yep because I can carry too..

    I guess part of the problem is folks that have gone through the training and put in the effort believe EVERYONE should also put in that effort. It’s a valid point. But I ask those with utah CCW permits how many people have you shot? Trained or not, the vast majority of gun owners will never pull it or use it n another person. The mere fact they have the tool on them to do the job sometimes is good enough. I’d like to see a few stats on the comparison between Utah and Texas ccw permits. Are those owning a Utah permit causing deaths? firing in crowded buildings for no reason or something?

    I do understand that the opinion that EVERY Gun owner should be well trained on it’s use. That’s common sense. IF a UTAH license is a worthless piece of paper, then I suggest Texas change the law to allow only Texas permits within it’s borders.

  10. TexasFred says:

    Again.. It’s NOT about reciprocity Rob… Texas honors the Utah license, BUT, they allow it to be taught and issued to TEXANS, a serious loophole that will be addressed in the next Congressional session, and rightfully so…

    Piss on Utah and their mostly ceremonial license… It’s not about the fact that it’s not Texas, it’s about the FACT that any asshole with the money can get it…

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  12. Texasperated says:

    Frankly, Robert and Fred, my right to carry open or concealed does not depend upon how many forms I’ve filled out or how many courses I’ve taken or how many bureaucrats think I should be allowed to carry open or concealed or any other way.

    Now, Fred, I realize you have a very strong opinion on this. But the fact is my right to carry does not depend upon hitting a stupid paper target with no time limit any more than it depends upon me sending $$ to the state of Utah (or the state of Texas).

    My point is far more basic, IMO. That is that the government has NO JURISDICTION on this subject.

    Not that it matters, but I also am a veteran and what most people would regard as an excellent marksman. But my right to defend my family does not depend upon the fact that I am a veteran nor upon the fact that I can at least hit the broad side of a barn from the INSIDE (which is about what is required in Texas).

  13. TexasFred says:

    Texasperated, at least Texas requires you to shoot the damned gun…

    I don’t feel that the right to carry should be hindered, but as of this moment, YES, it IS a legal matter, and will remain so until such time as good men free this nation from tyranny…

    That said, walk around carrying a gun without a CHL and see how well it goes over… I really do wish we had the same law as Arizona, open carry and NO permit to conceal, but again, folks are missing, or deliberately misinterpreting the point, my point being, it’s damned WRONG to allow some dipstick that’s never fired a gun to have a permit to carry and conceal…

    Personal responsibility would be nice, IF every gun owner in America took the time to get fully familiar and well trained, AWESOME, lacking that exercise in common sense taking place, I have NO problem with requiring proof of adequacy at the very least…

    I am terribly disappointed in some of the so-called GUN HANDS that aren’t hammering that point home in this thread…

  14. extex_cop says:

    I agree with Fred on this one. You should live in the state that you are getting the CCL from. Even though Texas allows people from other states ( and countries ) to obtain a CCL…at least you have to be in Texas when getting it. That permit allows one to conceal carry in Texas as well as several other states, but beware….a non-resident getting a CCL from Texas can not carry in all the states as a resident is allowed.

    For more info on which states honor other states CCL you can click on the following link. I even made a copy to carry in my glove box while traveling outside of Texas…just so I would know which states honored our CCL.

    Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps

    You just need to click on your state and it will show which others honor that states CCL.

  15. Robert says:

    I agree with the “You need to abide by the law of your state” sentiment. And from my point of view this is one argument I’d love to have the ability to discuss. Yall should consider yourselves lucky….

    Fred and I have discussed this at length and there is some validity in the argument, however it’s really up to Texas to fix the problem if it’s a problem. Utah is happy with their version of “CCL” and unless there are instances that cause it to be re-evaluated, it will stand. Texas though CAN stop giving UTAH CCL to Texas residences.

    Personally, I’d be fine with the AZ law applied Federally. (For now, I’m waiting to see how many problems are going to be associated with the new AZ law)

    I’m a huge supporter of the 2nd amendment, and it doesn’t say “Right to bear arms only if you can shoot like Wyatt Earp”…Everyone should have the right to protect themselves. It’s up to US as good gun owners to get the training and the lecture to better our skills. Those that don’t are as likely to be a victim of crime as the unarmed.

  16. TexasFred says:

    Texas WILL deal with it in the next legislative session, and you’re still not getting it…

    No one, YOU, ME, anyone, should be able to get a CHL from anything other than their home state and then only after a thorough vetting, training and qualification…

    Forget Arizona, they are NOT a part of the equation, they have NO law in regards to open carry or concealed as long as you’re not a felon…

    Apples and oranges in this discussion, but it would be nice if Arizona realized that this is 2010 and not 1885 or so…

  17. Robert says:

    I am gettin it Fred, But here’s my final statement on the subject anyway.

    A person in Texas can go buy a gun, never fired one before and walk out with it the same day..That same person may or may not ever fire that weapon. That same person may also carry that weapon on their person regardless of any law in place.

    Same argument was made before california went anti-gun:
    “I see issues with people being able to buy guns and walk out with them without knowing who they are or if they have been properly trained on safety…”

    Regardless of whatever law is in place now is a gun owner and has the potential to do something stupid.

    I’d also think that 2nd amendment proponents would be as anti-regulation as possible when the feds or state gov. is concerned. This particular issue can blow up and become a slippery slope.

    Utah I’m told is now considering an AZ type Concealed law. IF that happens what will Texas do? I think that would pretty much render the issue mute because their would be no more UTAH CCL.

  18. TexasFred says:

    If Utah does what Arizona did, it is all MOOT…

    Mute is silent… Moot is of no legal significance…

    And that is what a Utah license truly is… Of no legal significance…

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