Firefighters face new threat: private 911 service
SAN FRANCISCO/NEW YORK — For-profit ambulance companies present American communities with an offer that’s hard to refuse these days.
They will take over 911 emergency rescue service at little or no charge to cash-short cities and counties and promise to bring down labor costs spent on public employees.
But leaders of this growing industry face an unusual business obstacle: Sooty firefighters, who are among the most potent symbols of American trustworthiness and selfless valor.
For the men and women in fire departments, this is no drill. With fewer fires to fight as building codes have improved, providing emergency medical service has become a big part of what they do.
Full Story Here:
Firefighters face new threat: private 911 service
I think anyone that has ever read my blog knows, I am a HUGE supporter of the Police and Fire Fighters. That said, I have absolutely NO use for Labor Unions, SEIU, IBEW, UAW AFL-CIO, Teamsters, or any other Union of ANY name, brand or label.
This post is not meant to be confrontational, my intent is to spur thought, and hopefully, find some answers to the tough questions Rowlett is facing.
The upshot has been numerous clashes pitting private players against fire chiefs and the influential union, the International Association of Fire Fighters.
This is the IAFF logo, a nice logo, but a UNION logo none the less.
Unions have, in MY opinion, outlived their usefulness in today’s society. They get rich off of their members *dues* and offer little in return. Just look at Detroit. Look at what was, once upon a time, Western Electric, a facility that made phones for Bell Telephone back in the day. It became AT&T and had been represented by IBEW since it’s building.
One of their bigger plants, in Shreveport, La., was shut DOWN many years ago, the IBEW priced them out of a job.
The Unions have priced their workers OUT of a job all over, and have caused U.S. markets to move overseas.
The biggest U.S. private ambulance provider, American Medical Response, has been engaged in a particularly fierce battle with firefighter unions around Las Vegas. It’s gotten so rough that a company general manager there was recently recorded describing a plan to make the North Las Vegas union chief look like “an absolute a-hole.”
There is no way that I would say that about our Fire Chief. Mr. George Harris is a gentleman that I have had the pleasure to meet and is one that I really like. Our Fire Fighters are some hard workers too, but, our Fire Department here in Rowlett IS represented by the International Association of Fire Fighters.
The IAFF is a well intentioned group I am sure, but I have to ask, have they caused the price of Emergency Medical Service coverage to sky rocket? And thus, cost the City of Rowlett money spent that didn’t have to be?
As a Chief, I don’t know if Mr. Harris is a Union member or not. I know he will see this post and I hope he will respond in comments. Chief Harris strikes me as a straight-up, no nonsense kind of guy, and I know he is very intelligent, so, his input would be very helpful here.
I also know that the City of Rowlett is facing a budget crisis. I have to wonder, would the City be ahead of the game to out-source their Emergency Medical System to a *for hire* service like Lone Star or AMR? Would that save the City enough money to make a difference?
And while AMR president Mark Bruning called that choice of words “unacceptable” in a Reuters interview, the company notes in its regulatory filings that in many communities, its most important competitors are the local fire departments, which have expanded into emergency ambulance service “and do not wish to give up their franchises to a private competitor.”
I know that competition is good for business. I know that competition drives the price and level of service.
I want to make this very clear, I am NOT denigrating the Rowlett Fire Department, it’s Chief, or our Firefighters, not in ANY way, but I have to ask, is the IAFF/AFL-CIO a needed thing in this day and time? Could the City be saved enough money if the Rowlett FD dumped the IAFF and took a pay cut equal to what they are paying in Union dues?
Could the City be better served by contracting private EMS services? Would that facilitate the layoffs, RIFs, of some of our wonderful Fire Fighters?
The Mayor, City Manager and Council are always looking for ways to better serve the citizens of Rowlett and not cut the actual services we enjoy as they save every dollar they can, I am throwing this out for discussion, from ALL parties, City officials and citizens.
Facing stiff budget restraints and more than usual anti-tax fervor among voters, state and local governments are under pressure to turn more services over to private industry. At the same time, an aging U.S. population is expected to need more ambulance care in the coming years.
Private ambulance companies are growing at a time when public-sector unions are under broad assault, epitomized by recent moves by the state of Wisconsin to strip the collective bargaining power of public-employee unions. The controversial Wisconsin law excludes firefighter unions, but a similar measure in Ohio extends to almost all state employees.
I don’t know if ANY of this is feasible, but if concerned citizens don’t weigh in with suggestions and ideas, our Mayor and Council won’t know what we’re thinking.
I know the Council DOES listen, I hope the Mayor is listening too.
When I was a kid growing up in the 60′s, ambulances were privately owned. If you look at old movies where you’ll see an ambulance, it’s always privately owned. As time went on, ambulances more and more came under the control of local fire departments or governments. Where I live in Missouri, the county controls the ambulances and we pay for it through an additional sales tax.
We’ve had private amblams in Sacratomato, Fornicalia for as long as I’ve been a cop here, since the late 60′s — there used to be a number of private companies but now it’s predominantly AMR as well. We knew that the private jobbers didn’t get paid real well and it showed. I dated a chick who worked for a private company; very hot, very — ahem — earthy. AMR doesn’t service all districts, but some. City and county fire box medics still provide a number of rides. But up in the mountains where I actually live, AMR is the ONLY game in town at all.
BZ
BZ — Is privatized service a better deal for the City/County?
OK, rather than go on a long winded rant (as I want to) here, I’ll post my full comments on my blog (http://smokeysviews.wordpress.com/), but I have to say that this idea is both great and horrible.
The idea of a private company taking over the operation of the 911 phone banks, if done RIGHT and handled the way it should be handled is a good one, as it will reduce the burden on cities who still operate them.
The idea of any “private company” running an ambulance service is bad, and the idea of “private” fire departments scares the crap out of me! So, let these guys dispatch to those of us who are trained to do this job! I’m ecstatic that fires happen less and less due to better buildings, as that’s less chance for injury or death, but what happens if a private company takes over and decides that the engines in use aren’t “cost effective” and all of a sudden the guys fighting fire can’t get there as fast? Or have to take fewer tools?
Smokey — I don’t think I mentioned a private Fire Department, just the EMS aspect… And seriously, I am only asking questions, I have no idea if it would work…
My biggest beef is the Unions… I hate em, one and all, I believe they are bloodsuckers that bleed the life out of everyone they touch… Sanctioned robbery… If FDs could dump Unions and take that cut, matching ONLY what was going to Union dues, I have to wonder how much could be saved…
OK, point to you there, as I only skimmed the post since I need sleep. However, the idea of “private” ambulance service is both good and bad. If run by a capable company, say one started by former employees of a “public” ambulance group, and staffed with properly certified and qualified people, I won’t argue. The main issue is that it’s expensive to run one. You have to pay for not only the people, but stocking every box (ambulance for non FF’s out there, at least from my FD), gas whether used or not for a call, and so on. What happens when it’s not “cost effective” to keep the boxes out all the time, and we go to dispatch points? Currently (at least in my area), they are always out and always running! This way, when they get a call, they simply shift into drive and go, rather than running to the box, getting in, belting in, confirming which unit is going, starting the vehicle, then going. While all of that may take less than 90 seconds if the crew is good, that 90 seconds, and possibly being further from the scene due to being in the garage, could cost a life. So, until proven that it won’t go the way of any other business, I vote NO on this.
I don’t remember the title (it may have been called “Emergency”) but there was a TV series that came out (I think it was in the 60′s or early 70′s) that made city government EMT’s the heroes…then it seemed like every city wanted the same sort of thing. I was living up north at the time and when the mayor suggested that the city invest in an ambulance and hire EMT’s I recall many of us citizens responding with words like, “The mayor has been watching too much TV!” …but we also did not have a City Manager at the time (remember, City Managers are not elected, they are appointed) As soon as a city manager was appointed the ambulance and EMT’s soon followed. I don’t want to make this long and drawn out but City Managers are a waste of money and are an invention of the far left…they also belong to The International Association of City Managers a one world order group (note the word “International”).
Meanwhile, my dad was a fireman…”The firemen’s fireman!” as the others would say. He was dedicated to the profession like no other and was a proud holder of that IAFF logo which was prominently displayed in his rear window of his car… to this day, I always salute a fire truck on it’s way to a fire in memory of my dad but never to the union to which he belonged. My dad was aware of my dissatisfaction with any unions assocaited with government employees.
By the way, when my dad passed away back in ’85 the IAFF never gave him a second thought…they are only concerned with live, dues paying, members!
Who - I’m a volunteer, and therefore pay no dues to the IAFF, though some of their internet stuff allows me to stay in touch with other firefighters. That said, most FD’s are now stretched so thin that running the ambulance service is not possible. Do I want to see it just pushed to a private company? No, but neither do I want to see the govt (city, county, state, fed, whatever) “just take it”, as either is just having it pawned off. Like firemen, EMT’s need a lot of training, so as long as whoever is running this part of the first response world does it right, I’ll at least not fight them.
Long before you or I came along…and I’m 71…the country got along just fine without
government ambulances and government emt’s….THEY’RE NOT NEEDED! PERIOD!
Sadly, we do need people to “stand guard” as it were. The question today is where the money will come from, though I’m not paid and still “stand guard” over those I’m charged with protecting. Until the government stops requiring people to not only enforce the “standards” but also to fight fire and rescue people when the standards fail or something else, we’ll need paid (private or public is irrelevant) firefighters and EMT’s. The question is this however, can the private sector do better than the government in this, an industry that is, at it’s core, never destined to be “cost effective”.
Maybe I’m losing my touch…
I appreciate the comments guys, but this is also about fiscal responsibility, and Union costs… And full time Fire Fighters… And EMTs… And Rowlett… And the only one from Rowlett that has responded so far was a moonbat Libertarian that ran down ALL of his *Elect Jerry* moonbat talking points from the last time he didn’t get elected… And got those comments deleted…
One thing about Rowlett that seriously bugs me is the fact that if it’s not something that immediate piques the interest, gets folks in an uproar, many just don’t give a damn, and I sent this to City officials as well as citizens… I have to wonder, can there be a discussion without a protest? Or a news camera? Or a cussing out by the Mayor?
Can a citizen ask a very legitimate question and get a very serious answer from his City officials and fellow citizens?
The crickets are strangely noisy tonight in this part of Texas..
There isn’t a bigger supporter of fire and police than I am.
There has not been a proposal to privatize or outsource our ambulance service. Based on the efficiency we have achieved in all facets of municipal service delivery, it seems unlikely to me that a for-profit proposal could be crafted that would both maintain or improve the service delivered and cut the cost to the city and it’s citizens.
To maintain the level of service, those private ambulances would need to be pre-positioned in four areas of the city like we do now with our fire stations. Once the cost of the positioning and the staff required is absorbed, there isn’t much left for profit for the ambulance company at the current cost levels. In order for that company to make money, at least one of several things would likely need to happen:
1. Reduce the number of pre-position points, increasing response time
2. Reduce the training and quality of the staff on those ambulances by paying less, decreasing the level of service provided
3. Increase the cost of service to the citizen, decreasing the value of the taxes paid.
Clearly any of these outcomes results in lower quality of service to the citizens of Rowlett; something that I would be unwilling to support.
Although this doesn’t deal with Firefighters and Ambulances, this can show what happens when services become too privatized.
Years back, the USAF went to private contractors to provide all its dining hall services. The AF eliminated the specialty code for its cooks and no longer trained them. A number of years down the road when all the cooks were out of the system, the contractors started raising the prices they charged the AF to manage their dining halls. Eventually it became no longer cost effective to hire private contractors. I found out this weekend the AF is taking back control of its dining facilities and training its own cooks.
Privatization can save money in the beginning but it may cost you dearly in the end. I would have no problem with private ambulances but I want the 911 dispatchers under control of elected representatives who are under the control of the people.
Speaking of unions. Anyone notice with public employee unions lately coming under scrutiny, how suddenly we’re having a rash of Air Traffic Controllers sleeping on the job? The controllers dealt with these work schedules for decades but all of a sudden, it’s a problem and how the union has the “fix”.
Hmm… This really hits home. As in been there, done that.
As far as qualifications go? A lot of times the
privates” have higher standards than public agencies. Not all, but most. As in being both State Certified, and National registry and all the alphabet certifications to boot. I worked both paid and volunteer over the years, and yes, the training levels were identical. That includes being a certified dispatcher. In fact, getting on with a city or county service usually requires several years experience. Where do they get that? At a private service.
And they do it at, you guessed it! A much lower price… AMR, by the way, is unionized in most areas.
So, to answer Fred’s question; In a nutshell money would be saved.
I have a problem with the idea though. Basically it boils down to special situations: Major disasters, special occasions such as when the POTUS or other dignitaries are in town. I can assure you, from experience, that the Secret Service just plain will not play with non-governmental agencies. The Columbine High School incident showed just how fragile our communications systems were. And that was utilizing some of the best in the business.
Then we get to things like how many people are FEMA MCI certified? During our post incident evaluation of the above situation it was discovered that I was the only person on duty that day that had been trained for it. Not a single dispatcher, Firefighter, or LEO had been through the course. I myself would prefer that someone in authority be in charge as opposed to a person that most likely would be paid better for flipping burgers at Micky D’s.
It’s the age old question of guns or butter from Macroeconomics.
Patrick D. Sperry
NREMT-Paramedic
FF- I
and too damned many other letters behind my name to even bother with!
~Retired~
And don’t get me started on AMR, or Fire Departments taking over EMS…
One thing that has been told to me, and I knew this, but it had slipped my mind, Texas is a Right to Work state, no one belongs to ANY Union that doesn’t want to…
Also, after more investigation and having conferred with *people in the know*, The Rowlett Fire Department is NOT a Union Shop, they are affiliated with the Rowlett Fire Fighters Association who are in turn associated with another association who are in turn members of the IAFF, but OUR Firefighters are NOT Union…
As to cost savings, I have been given the opinions of 2 people in the Rowlett City government that I DO respect greatly… The idea of a PRIVATE EMS service just doesn’t sound feasible and could, in the long run, cost Rowlett and it’s citizens even MORE money…
Again, our Firefighters do a hell of a job and I support and respect them greatly! And I do appreciate the straight answers I got from those *in the know*…
And there’s a HUGE difference right there, Fred — Fornicalia is NOT a “right to work” state, though our neighbor, Nevada, is. Still, Nevada is encountering massive budget issues itself. AMR in my area works in the smaller communities. The city and the county of Sacramento taxpayers weighed in and determined they’d rather have their own box medic rigs in fire houses. That means there are more box medic rigs available than AMR could provide. Smaller communities seem to be happy with AMR service.
BZ
I know that our Police and Fire Fighters don’t come under Civil Service, it was voted DOWN by election not too long ago, in an election where Hizzoner campaigned his ass off AGAINST Civil Service…
Rowlett has just under 60K citizens, I don’t know if there’s a requirement a city has to meet, a size that has to be attained, before Civil Service is mandatory or not.
I was told by my son, who is an officer on a Department in Louisiana that his understanding of Louisiana laws is, if a city reaches a certain size the PD and FD do have to go to a Civil Service setup…
Let me stress, Civil Service is NOT a Union, it is Civil Service and most municipalities DO operate under it, maybe Rowlett will too in the future, I know our Police and Fire Fighters DO need Civil Service protection…
I don’t know where I stand on this issue.
But I do know the following: the government operated ambulance services here take the patient to the nearest hospital, which may not necessarily be the hospital that the patient needs. Then, to transfer to the preferred hospital, a private service has to be hired. My insurance will not cover the cost of that transfer, but it will cover the cost of the first trip for which the 911 call was made.
Now, I understand all the reasons for first going to the nearest hospital. No argument or complaint there. Furthermore, I do believe that our local EMT service is excellent.
But unions for these employees? I’m dead set against that!
I am a member of the IAFF and before you lambast me for it, let me explain. We can not strike nor would most of us. Secondly it has single handedly improved Firefighter and fire ground safety working with other agencies such as the I A F C ( International Assoc. of Fire Chiefs, might be considered a union payed for by city money ). It has developed long term studies to find out why firefighters die from cancer of strange origins at early ages. Thirdly, it is my only source of affordable legal council for me when faced with possible disciplinary actions brought by the City and their attorney on retainer, whether unfounded or not. Civil Service would bring a civil review board of citizens for disciplinary review and that would truly be welcomed. Finally, A private ambulance would be operated most likely by one paramedic and one EMT( Rowlett Medics are staffed with two Paramedics Always) and the amount of the bill received by the citizen for treatment and or transport would be 3 times what is sent out now by RFR.
Always on Watch - In Rowlett you will be taken to (most times) the hospital of your choosing as long as we can get you there in stable or better condition, otherwise you will be taken to the appropriate facility to treat you issue if we have enough medics in the city. It may include an air ambulance because you need to go to Parkland or Baylor at peak traffic times and sitting on I-30 in traffic is not the fastest way to get you the treatment needed. Do you think a private EMS service is going to pass off a potentially high bill to another service? Probably NOT. Don’t speak of things your unsure of if you live in Rowlett, We are and will continue to be the best and most highly trained. P.S most city employees haven’t had a pay raise in 4 -5 yrs. Not bitchin, just stating facts
Smokey, first off, always nice to hear from another firefighter (even if I’m still working to get back on a VFD).
Next, I’m not IAFF mostly due to my last VFD not even mentioning joining and I was more concerned with training at the time. As for private ambulances, if the FD can’t (or won’t as is possible in some cities) run it, I tend to ask why hospitals don’t, as they are the next logical choice, though I know logic doesn’t mix at all with government.
If run privately, I would at least hope they staff one paramedic and one emt if not two paras, and would respond and act the same as a “public” service, meaning hospital of choice if asked and not medically unwise, and so on. Sadly, “private” companies are going to either be more concerned from the start, or become so very quickly, with the “bottom line”, rather than simply doing the job, which is what ends up making up my mind and pushing my vote for a private company running this to a no vote. Sadly, I doubt any of our votes will matter, and those in power will continue to look at the money rather than the people.
I have nothing positive to say about unions these days, however, if I’m in an emergency situation, I want a fireman to show up at my door, along with the ambulance. I trust the firefighters implicitly and they are responsible to the public at large. A fireman not concerned about a person in distress is something I’ve never heard of. I’m sure it’s happened, but it hasn’t reached my ears.
My Mother lives in an Assisted Living place. The Fire Department is there everyday, . along with the ambulance. They are so kind, and they show up for work everyday. I’m not so sure about a private ambulance service.
Having said all that, I have no idea how these services work here in Tulsa, or about unions, but our ambulances are privatized.
Maggie, I met more than one (though thankfully not many more) firefighters who didn’t care and only thought it would be “cool to be a fireman”. Even being a very small volunteer department, we weren’t in need of people so badly that we kept them, and this (I hope) happens in other FD’s, as it is a job you MUST love and have a drive to do, or you not only put those you are there to serve at risk, but also those you serve with.
That said, it’s great to hear about your mom’s situation, as Firefighters and EMT’s who are involved in their community are what we need. I remember one Christmas Eve not long after my family moved in 2001, I went to get some fried chicken and biscuits, then took dinner to both stations in my new town. The guys there thanked me and were nice, but they also had the attitude that I didn’t need to do that, which is why I did it! They don’t expect it, they’re just doing something they love and that serves those around them, so I wanted to say thank you.
I also remember 9/11/01, when I was able to go home when my new job (training to work in a hotel) sent us home hearing the news. My mother, however, worked for a major airline, and was locked in the building. I called the Fire Station near her office and asked if they could be called if she needed something from “the outside”, and they not only did, but offered to run for sundries and such. Knowing they’d be stuck for a while, she asked if they’d pick up some lunch meat, bread, bottled water and such, nothing fancy, but still stuff that was needed. They did, and even called a few more times just to ensure all was OK, making sure they were there when the PD came to inspect the building to ensure it was safe as it might have been targeted as well. Those are the men we need, and thankfully, my town has them.
Fred,
I will try to keep this as short as possible, but let me start off by saying that perharps you would get more resposne to your blog if you didn’t attack anyone that did’nt agree with you.
Now, that being said I would like to say that being the wife of a Rowlett firefighter it does piss me off that you posted this after just a couple of weeks ago after the council meeting you came up to my husband and gave him some of your cards and praised him and the firefighters and told him to hand out your cards to the other firefighters and to let you know if there is anything you can do, that you are behind them 100%. Well last week they belonged to the IAFF and they still do. So, perhaps if you would like to do something post something possitive about Rowlett’s Fire Department and not the world. Our guys have never done one thing to make this city questions the loyaity or integrety of the department.
You have the right to your opinion but Rowlett’s EMS service is one of the best, have you ever dealt with a private sector of EMS? If not my friend beware of what you wish for. If you are sick or injured in Rowlett you can be sure you are going to be treated by professionals that DO NOT care your age,your color, your politcal views,your income, they will treat everyone the same and that is to the best of their abilities (which are very high might I add.)
I guess what makes me mad is you don’t have a problem with the EMS you just hate Unions, Well I hate Blogs but I don’t think they should be sensored just because I hate them. Nor will I start a blog just to tell everyone I hate them.
If you knew the behind the scenes of what the IAFF has done for our firefighters here in Rowlett you may have a different opinion (or maybe not if you are just stubborn and will not change your mind no matter what anyone proves to you) but, there is NO ONE in this city truly looking out for our Firefighters NO ONE. Oh you have those that love to say they are when it works for them politically, but I throw out the BS card on that.
This Mayor and a couple on the City Council said and did dispicable things to the Fire & Police during Civil Service Election, But the men & women that serve this community would NOT attack or say anything that may hurt this community.
While you and others may look at this as a job, these men and women look at it as their Calling. They will go over and beyond to make sure this community is safe and protected and that you CAN NOT put a price on! And, they spend many of hours giving back to the community when they are off the clock.
You want to save money in the city, let’s start at the top and start cutting Allowances, for Cars,phones and whatever other perk’s we give to entice management. Just a thought.
Ok, just my 2 cents.
Have a great day!
Doug,
Has the city recently solicited a proposal or are you just guessing that it could not be done?
If it was outsourced, the city could require certain minimum service levels, such as staffing requirements, response time, credentials and training, etc.
To say that it would automatically result in slower response time, lower training standards and higher costs is little more than an admission that the City Manager and City Council are incapable of providing appropriate oversight.
An outsourced EMS would only degenerate if the city allowed it to. Are you suggesting that city management is not capable of providing adequate oversight or negotiating sufficient service levels to maintain taxpayer value?
Crobnett — I understand that we won’t all agree, but before anyone attacks me about this post, I suggest you actually read MORE than the headline.. Read the post, and then read the comments, IN FULL…
I was throwing this out there for discussion, and looking for answers, I was NOT suggesting ANYTHING that denigrates our fire fighters… I got those answers, from Councilman Phillips and Chief Harris, and I see where the City needs to keep it’s EMS in the City…
I AM and always will be, a UNION HATING SOB, if that gives you grief, deal with it… My blog, my rights to free speech, and voicing my hatred for Unions as a whole is NOT denigrating ANY Rowlett fire fighter, in ANY way…
Right to work and freedom of speech, ain’t life a bitch??
We have not solicited a proposal. Looking at the issues, I don’t believe it could be done in a such a way to improve the value to our citizens.
If we were to go this route, we could and would certainly require minimum service levels with contractual penalties for non-compliance. However, that is only a part of the issue.
A big problem that comes up with privatization is mutual aid. Currently cities in the area each staff to a reasonable level, and then rely on assistance from other cities to handle excessive volume. For example, if we need more service than we can provide ourselves, we can request assistance from Garland. However, my understanding is that state law prohibits allowing municipal resources to backup private entities. The result is that if we were to privatize, we would need to staff at a level to cover all possibilities, because we could no longer rely on neighboring cities to help manage that excess.
The issue isn’t as much oversight or contracted service levels, it is one of regional cooperation in dealing with all the possible contingencies.
Doug — After learning of that regional cooperation deal I was terribly impressed with the setup we have here in Rowlett…
Some folks think I made this post to blast fire fighters and make people hate them because of the Union, nothing could be further from the truth…
I make NO secret of the fact that I hate ALL Unions, but that doesn’t affect my support of the FD… I just fail to see why anyone would belong to a Union when they don’t have to…
I appreciate the straight up answers I got from you and the Chief, answers was all I had in mind with this post, regardless of what Crobnett believes…
Those that don’t know me may not know this, but I am a HUGE supporter of Civil Service and the Police and Fire Depts that work under Civil Service… My issues with Unions are not specific to any one Union, I am an equal opportunity Union hater, I hate em ALL..
ADMIN EDIT: You called me ignorant in email, said you had NO TIME for ignorance, so, I am taking you at your word and removing your post, as well as ANY in the future…
As I said to you in email.. Buh-Bye…