Report: Colo. shooter’s shrink talked to cop prior to massacre
Sources say a University of Colorado police officer was contacted weeks before the Aurora attack
AURORA, Colo. — The psychiatrist who treated the shooter suspected of killing 12 and wounding 58 at a “Dark Knight Rises” screening contacted police several weeks prior to the massacre, according to a news report.
Citing unnamed sources, ABC News said Monday that Dr. Lynne Fenton expressed concerns to a University of Colorado police officer about James Holmes’ behavior. Under state law, breaching doctor-patient confidentiality is legal if there is believed to be a serious and imminent threat to the safety of others. (emphasis TF)
Police and university spokespersons, under court-issued gag orders, did not comment on what the officer did with the information. However, it was reported that the officer was recently interviewed as part of an investigation by Aurora Police.
Fenton had contacted members of the campus threat assessment team, which reportedly had never met about Holmes after he announced he was withdrawing from the university.
Story Here:
Report: Colo. shooter’s shrink talked to cop prior to massacre
OK, let’s drop the BS about doctor/patient confidentiality shall we?
Some folks seem to think that because they work in the medical field they are infinitely well qualified to comment on ALL matters related to medicine and police work; they are NOT! I have NO problem with people speaking from a platform of truth and knowledge, but generalized assumptions are going to get you into a ton of trouble on The TexasFred Blog because I WILL find sources to back up my every statement!
In this post: James Holmes referred to University of Colorado threat-assessment team, sources say I had a reader (Katie) tell me that even though Holmes had quit school, the school had NO responsibility to report this guy as a threat to the public in general.
That is as wrong as wrong can be Katie. I’m not sure how things work in YOUR world, and you can post links to Wikipedia about doctor/patient privilege until HELL freezes over, but the fact, a word you really liked using in that commentary, the FACT of the matter is this: Dr. Lynne Fenton expressed concerns to a University of Colorado police officer about James Holmes’ behavior. Under state law, breaching doctor-patient confidentiality is legal if there is believed to be a serious and imminent threat to the safety of others!
The doctor, Lynn Fenton, did her very best to get the message across to intervention teams and law enforcement authorities.
So, the FACTS that you present just don’t support you on this one Katie! And for what it’s worth, FACTS are generally accompanied by LINKS to citation!
Also, from my original story: Dr. Lynne Fenton was so alarmed by the behavior of James Holmes that she notified the campus-wide threat-assessment team that she helped create years before.
It appears to me that Dr. Fenton did a great job of analyzing what is turning out to be a crazy SOB that murdered a lot of people, and it also appears that Dr. Fenton wasn’t too damned concerned about this doctor/patient thing because the lives of others were is danger, clear and present danger.
In that same thread a great friend and brilliant Law Enforcement mind, Bloviating Zeppelin, had this to say.
The system failed PURPOSELY because PC individuals FEARED being “judgmental,” just as the US military FEARED reacting to Nidal Hassan.
In both instances, both systems are RESPONSIBLE for DEATHS because they FEAR. Western systems would rather sacrifice YOU than be accountable and logical in the face of insanity and terror.
There is NO wrong in reporting a psycho to the authorities when the lives of others are at stake, this doctor/patient BS looks real good on some TV Cop and Lawyer show but in the REAL world it works a lot differently.
I am not making this post to be picking on you Katie, but here on MY blog, facts are ALL I have, I research all of my posts extensively, I link to reputable sources and when I post an opinion I make sure that it is clearly understood to be an opinion, I don’t just post the word FACT in all CAPS and hope for the best!
So let me make myself VERY clear in this; if the police knew that James Holmes presented an immediate danger and did nothing, if this crisis intervention team knew that James Holmes presented an immediate danger and did nothing, they are BOTH indeed culpable in this matter.
And Katie, regarding your insisting that Holmes is not crazy but is an evil genius, there is a very fine line between genius and insanity.
I stated that in MY opinion Holmes is crazy, you stated as FACT that Holmes is an evil genius and was protected by rich parents. Again an unsourced opinion, now I have to wonder; are you any more qualified to ascertain the mental stability of an individual than I am?
I based MY OPINION on the findings of Dr. Fenton. Where did your FACTS come from?
Perhaps Holmes IS attempting to set up an insanity plea, perhaps he’s not truly insane, at least by your definition Katie, but what level of sanity does a person have to surpass before they reach the INSANE plane? No SANE person could have committed these acts!
Fred, I know there is a difference between LEGAL responsibility and MORAL responsibility. I believe CU-Denver had BOTH! As for whether NUTJOB (I refuse to use his name, the ONLY names that should be spoken and remembered out of this are those of the victims…) is “criminally insane” or not; I believe him to be CRIMINAL. Sane or insane is a moot point-he MUST be held accountable and punished for HIS actions! (IMHO, ok maybe not humble) He didn’t start acting (to set up an insanity defense) until AFTER the fact-his plans were well thought, and carried out with near perfection (all the way down to the part where he did receive a scratch as he (as part of his plan) was allowed to simply surrender to Police after he had fired as many rounds as his weapons would allow…)
Yeah, that *peaceful surrender* thing has had me bugged too… And I’m not qualified to determine his sanity, or insanity either, but my *Spidey Sense* sure is tingling on this one…
In MY opinion, no SANE person could do such, criminally insane, that’s my best guess, and again, not being a shrink, just going on past experience, that’s all I have!
I don’t know if there’s such a clinical term or not, but there has to be a condition, where one PLANS, PREPARES and COMMITS acts of insanity and yet is not clinically defined as insane. Clinical insanity should NOT be an option for MONSTER like this NUTJOB!
I am certain that premeditation played into it… I don’t know the terminology either, not the medical terminology… But this guy has a special place reserved, in HELL!
And furthermore; an insanity plea shouldn’t save this guy from a date with the executioner..
Fred,
Here is how I see it, based on my previous experience; If a physiologist/doctor is evaluating his patient and during that evaluation, the doctor learns from his patient of plot to commit an act of violence, then the doctor must notify the proper authorities and advise them of the potential act of violence. If nothing happens great. The doctor would not have violated his patient/doctor confidentially. Had the doctor not advised the Police or proper authorities, the doctor could be held liable in a civil action. That is how I understand it.
It would be like a judge issuing an arrest warrant and it is later determined that the information presented to the judge was false or the information was obtained illegally, the JUDGE would NOT be held responsible FOR ISSUING the warrant because he took the good faith word of the officer(s), believing the information was true and correct. That is way an Officer must swear to the information and sign it before a judge
Well, that’s how I understand it too, but what the hell do WE know about the law..
The doctor did contact the local authorities about Holmes, as did the campus police.
So local authorities were informed of this man, his threat and they did NOTHING!!!!
The Media has to blame someone for this horror, so it blames guns, the doctor, Conservatives, the GOP, the TEA Party. soon it will be the police, but not the true villain in this: James Holmes.
I still believe that Holmes was setting himself up for an insanity defense. That would prevent the Death Penalty, give him an easy stay in a hospital and not prison, and when the doctors say he is “cured” he gets out.
Katie: “The doctor did contact the local authorities about Holmes, as did the campus police.”
And when I said there was a responsibility to contact authorities YOU started all that doctor/patient bullshit and said it could be a *sticky wicket*… NO, it’s NOT, and anyone with a background in law enforcement knows that…
And THEY did nothing..
That is exactly what I said on the post referenced and YOU took me to task on it, saying it was NOT their responsibility since Holmes had quit the school and YOU used doctor/patient confidentiality as the reason..
Spin all you like Katie, you can’t back-track out of this one…
And for what it’s worth, I DO blame Holmes, along with the people that were responsible for interdiction, that would be the crisis team AND the police… The media isn’t blaming anyone, and if you bothered to see the SOURCE of MY post, you would see that it’s a POLICE site!
And when the doctor says he’s cured, he gets OUT? BULL SHIT… Again, you spout off about legal matters.. Once he is *cured* he will be charged, if he is deemed insane that is, but the criminally insane are not allowed parole too terribly often…
I have held back on speaking my mind to you for far too long, I tried to overlook a lot, but that time has ended… You enter MY bailiwick and you had better bring facts, REAL ones, with REAL citation, not some well syndicated blog BS…
The Examiner is NOT a SOURCE, it is a BLOG, like I have, like MILLIONS of people have… Try using REAL sources as opposed to opinions, OK? I have been holding this back and letting you get by with some seriously sloppy stuff on here, NO MORE… If you can’t link to a reputable SOURCE, just call it opinion…
Too many who cry insane are now walking the streets free. You can fake insanity if you know the signs and symptoms. Some states have changed the rules for insanity, but some have kept the old ones. It is hard to put a person with schizophrenia in prison and have him take his medicine. They normally release these people to half-way houses.
If he is convicted as Not Guilty by reason of insanity they cannot charge him again. You know that Fred, it is double jeopardy. In some states, if he is considered “sane” or will not harm another, he will be released.
There is a difference between not being sane enough to stand trial and being found Not Guilty by insanity. The first you wait until a trial can be done, the other is a legal verdict. Now if Colorado has changed its insanity defense, he will be “cured” then sent to prison for life. But I don’t know if they did.
I was wrong the first time, but the doctor who he was seeing DID contact the police and THEY did nothing. She contacted them a month before the shootings. She is clear of all liability.
I still say he is faking it. He is not a stupid guy and may have figured out a way to beat the rap.
Yeah Katie, you’re right, you’re the legal authority… What the hell do ANY of the others know that have commented here… You’re right, he’s a flipping genius, he is going to beat the system and then be released back onto the public… Damn, I wish I was as smart as you or had the intuition you have… We NEVER covered ANY of this in Criminal Justice or Criminology… Boy, I wish we had had someone like you, the curriculum would have been vastly improved…
Holmes was a crazy fucker.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If the cops knew this from the Doctor’s contact,,,,,then I would like to know which police officer knew this.
Yes, who is this police official!
Maybe some “shrink” who “dropped the ball”, and now cowering somewhere hoping no one will find out and expose him or her.
And WE know, seriously, WE KNOW, Police and Interdiction teams can and DO make mistakes… When I say WE I mean you, me, NativeSon, RightHandedCowboy, BZ, the guys that have been there and DONE the job…
Even under FORNICALIA law, as abjectly stupid as it can be, threats of violence and/or death can abrogate the doctor/patient privilege and can be reported.
Otherwise, no.
This doc did the right thing. My guess is that the information was SHUT DOWN by those people not wishing to be seen as “reactionary.”
Again: POLITICALLY CORRECT and “nice” takes precedence over YOUR LIFE.
BZ
Exactly!
Slippery slope here I think. Unless this guy came out and threatened to shoot people there’s little anyone could do about it. Because some shrink “Felt” he may be a threat doesn’t mean a beat cop or detective or DA could have intervened.
It’s a slope most folks won’t want to tread on. In CA, a women makes a report saying you threatened her, gets a restraining order and they take all of your firearms IMMEDIATELY. You have NO recourse until you go before a judge in a countersuit or challenge.
A Shrink would go into the DA and say “Hey, I’m worried about this client, he may be capable of murder”… What could the DA LEGALLY do? What would we be okay with a DA doing in that instance?
Now, if a shrink went tot he DA and said, “Hey this client said he’s going to shoot up a theater” The DA could do something and we would want them to.
You have been living in California for too long my friend… Come back to America! We can do things here that you guys can’t…
In Nazi Germany, the police were allowed to arrest people on suspicion that they were about to do wrong. This gave the police huge powers. All local police units had to draw up a list of people in their locality who might be suspected of being “Enemies of the State”.
This wouldn’t happen in the USA would it?
What the hell are you trying to say? That OUR Police would go Nazi? That I am? WHAT exactly?
Fred. I believe the reason behind the folks NOT doing anything about Dr. Fenton’s suspicions are based on FEAR. Close to what Nazi Germany had established under Adolf Hitler. Hitler’s police state worked on the rule that if you said nothing, no harm, could come to you. If you had doubts about the way the country was going, you kept them to yourself - or paid the price. As nearly 17 million people had not voted for either the Nazis or the Nationalist in March 1933, a large and visible police force was required to keep this sizeable group under observation and control. Just like today’s Homeland Security (Gestapo). . but that’s just an opinion…
There is a HUGE difference between NAZI Germany and the USA at present; we have at least 50% of America that will NOT stand FOR nor will they take the BS, and the 50% that WILL take it won’t FIGHT to make it happen, they will sit on their dead asses and let their Dem legislators do the work for them, and then accept the consequences…
Just a word of caution Chief: dropping NAZI references in every comment is NOT going to win you ANY friends here…
Ok, I won’t do that again.
Didn’t mean to offend anyone.
Just disgusted with our current administration.
That is all.
I’m disgusted with the current administration too, but I get a bit *up in the air* when American Police and NAZIs are referenced in the same sentence… So far, no harm, no foul… Carry on!
Godwin’s Law.
Keep your powder dry
Exactly, and I am NOT at all tolerant of asses that do such!!
Okay, this makes little sense. Here is why. ANY, medical professional, EMT-I or higher, has the ability to place ANYONE that is a clear and present threat to themselves or others under an M1 mental health hold. That last for 72 hours unless removed by a judge or “competent authority,” usually defined as a Psychiatrist or licensed Clinical Psychologist.
That said, perhaps he didn’t quite make the threshold of clear and present threat. However, from what has been published? He sure as hell did. How hard is it to do? Not that difficult. I know, I placed people on those holds more times than I care to remember. While most were released within a day or two a few ended up at the state hospital in Pueblo for extended stays.
My BS sniffer is going off at all this. Someone is playing the Cover Thine Butt game, and it cost the lives of many people. Not to mention that it lays out a platform for those that would destroy our Constitution.